Philosophy Discussions SOCRATES.HAY
Socrates
Hayagriva: ...that Syamasundara treated, but they're somewhat incomplete, so I will read. I've gone to the primary sources. He used a college outline series that wasn't really adequate. So I went to the primary sources, and I'll read a little, and if you want to comment on it, comment. If you don't feel like commenting on it, I'll just go on to the next section.
Once a student of Socrates--this is a section on Socrates--said, "I cannot refute you, Socrates." To this Socrates replied, "Say rather that you cannot refute the truth, for Socrates is easily refuted." This is by way of saying that the Absolute Truth is not a subject of mental speculation or personal opinion. The Truth, or the good, for Socrates stands separate from mundane relativities or personal opinion.
Prabhupada: That is our opinion. We accept Krsna as the supreme authority, and therefore we cannot refute what Krsna says. And our philosophy is perfect because we follow Krsna. He is the Supreme Perfect. This is our position. In other religious system, taking it our Krsna consciousness movement religious... It is religious, because our religion means the..., to carry out the order of God. That is the sum and substance of religion. We don't manufacture religion, and neither religion can be manufactured. Manufactured religion is useless. That has been described in the Bhagavad-gita, er, Srimad-Bhagavatam as dharma kaitava. Means cheating. So this is not cheating religion. Our basic principle is dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam. Dharma means the order which is given by God, and if you execute that, that is dharma. Just like law. Law is given by the government. You cannot manufacture law. That is not law. So our perfection is there, how we are executing the order of God cent percent. One who has no conception of God, neither the order of God, they can manufacture religious system. But our system is different.
Hayagriva: (aside:) This is picking up fine, the reading? Socrates considers the contemplation of beauty to be an activity of the wise man, but relative beauty in the mundane world is simply a reflection of absolute beauty. In the same way, good in the relative world is simply a reflection of the absolute good. In either case, absolute good or beauty is transcendental.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is our opinion. Beauty, knowledge, strength and opulence--everything--they are transcendental. Here, in this material world, it is perverted reflection. Just like the example is the mirage. A fool, animal, is thinking there is water in the desert, and he is running after it, and after sometimes he dies of thirst because there is not. But a sane man knows there is no water; it is simply a reflection by the sunshine, and this foolish animal is running after it. So he does not..., a sane man does not go for this false water. But another thing is that because there is no water in the desert, it does not mean there is no water. Water is there, but not there. Similarly happiness, beauty, opulence--everything is there. That is in the spiritual world. Here it is only a perverted reflection. So generally people have no information of the spiritual world; therefore they imagine something God, something spiritual world. They do not take that "This is imagination, this material world." When Krsna says, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti, they are reading Bhagavad-gita, but this simple thing they can not understand, that a devotee of Krsna, after giving up this body--the body has to be given up--then what happens? Krsna says mam eti, "He come to Me." And other system says that after death he goes to hell or goes to heaven. So that is to some extent fact. This human life, if he understands Krsna, he goes to the eternal abode--you can take it as heaven or something. Otherwise he remains in this material world to undergo the same cycle of birth and death. That is hell. It can be taken in that way.
Hayagriva: According to Socrates, the pursuit of man is the seeking of this absolute good. Basically Socrates is an impersonalist because he does not ultimately define this absolute good as a person, nor does he give the absolute good a personal name. He just calls it "the good."
Prabhupada: That is preliminary stage of understanding the Absolute. Because the..., the beginning, Brahman realization, impersonal, and then further advanced Paramatma realization, localized, God is everywhere. And God is everywhere, that's a fact. That is God. But He has got His place, abode. That is God, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto, that God is Person, He has His own abode, He has his own associates and everything. Difference is that although He is in His abode, He is present everywhere, even within the atom. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham. So Socrates or any other philosopher, they cannot understand the potency of God, how He can remain in His own place, simultaneously in every atom. That is the conception of God. So everywhere He is staying. Everything is His expansion, His energy, the bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca. The material world is bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh--land, water, earth, air. So these are different expansion of God's energy. So He can be present everywhere because His energy is expanded everywhere. So energy and the energetic, they are not different, but at the same time energy is not the energetic. This simultaneously one and different, acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, this is perfect philosophy.
Hayagriva: For Socrates, he taught a kind of a process of liberation. For him, liberation meant freedom from passion.
Prabhupada: Freedom from?
Hayagriva: Passion, passion.
Prabhupada: Passion, yes.
Hayagriva: And his motto was, "Know thyself." And by knowing oneself through meditation or insight one can gain self-control, and by being self-controlled one can attain happiness.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. Meditation means to analyze oneself--that is real meditation--and find out the Absolute Truth. That is the description in the Vedic literature. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yogino. Yogi means by his meditation he is seeing the Supreme Truth, Krsna, or God, within himself. Krsna is there, and so a yogi consults Krsna, and Krsna advises him. That is the relationship with yogi. Buddhi-yogam dadami tam. One who is purified, he is seeing Krsna always within himself. That is confirmed in the Brahma-samhita, premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti. A saintly person, advanced, he is seeing Krsna, yam syamasundaram. The very word used, Krsna is syamasundaram, very beautiful blackish, the Personality of Godhead, Syamasundaram. Syama means blackish, but extraordinarily beautiful. That is called syama. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam. Acintaya, unlimited qualities. Govindam adi-purusam tam aham... He is govindam. So it can be realized that He is situated everywhere, at the same time in His person He is always engaged in Vrndavana dancing with the gopis and playing with His friends and talking with His mother, and sometimes as naughty boy He is teasing mother's household affairs. So this is Krsna.
Hayagriva: It's been said that Socrates's philosophy is primarily a philosophy of ethics, and that...
Prabhupada: Atheist?
Hayagriva: Ethics, ethics...
Prabhupada: Ethics.
Hayagriva: The way, the way to...
Prabhupada: Ethics, yes.
Hayagriva: The way of action in the world. And the jnana, or knowledge, in itself is not sufficient, but it must be applied and must serve as a basis for action in the world.
Prabhupada: Yes, ethics is the basic principle of purification. Unless one does..., knows what is moral and what is immoral... Of course, in this material world everything is immoral, but still we have to distinguish good and bad. That is called regulative principle. Simply by following the regulative principle, if he does not reach the ultimate goal of spiritual life, so that is also not wanted. The real aim is to come to the spiritual platform and become free from the influence of these laws of material nature. So passion is the binding force in the material nature. Just like in the prison house the prisoners are kept sometimes chained by some iron shackles and other method, so material nature has given the chain, shackles, of sex life, passion, rajas tamah. Kama esa krodha esa rajo-guna-samudbhavah. Rajah-gunah means the modes of passion. So modes of passion means kama, lusty desires, and krodha. When the lusty desires are not fulfilled, one becomes angry. But these things are the means of bondage in this material world. In another place it is said, tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye. When one is afflicted with the base material modes of nature, namely rajo-guna and tamo-guna, then he becomes greedy and lusty. So ethics require to get out of the clutches of greediness and lusty desires. Then he comes to the platform of goodness, which will help him to go to the platform of spiritual life.
Hayagriva: But is meditation in itself..., would that be sufficient to transcend these lower...?
Prabhupada: Yes, meditation, if he seeks after the Supersoul within himself...
Hayagriva: Oh.
Prabhupada: ...that meditation is perfect. And if he is manufacturing something or bluffing others and bluffing himself by..., in the name of meditation, transcendental, it is useless. It has no value.
Hayagriva: Well, he feels that if one knows himself one will be a sadhu, because knowledge is identical with virtue.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: And through meditation--they call..., he called it arete (?)--a person attains knowledge. Through knowledge a person becomes virtuous. When one is virtuous, he acts in the right way. When one acts properly, he becomes happy. Therefore the enlightened man is a man who is meditative, knowledgeable, virtuous and, because of his proper action, he is happy.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita: brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati. This is the symptom of self-realized person. If one is self-realized, he is immediately happy, prasannatma, jolly, because immediately he is on the right. Just like one is going on under some mistaken ideas, and when he comes to the real idea, he becomes very happy: "Oh, so long I was going on such a mistaken idea." So immediately the result will be happiness: "How foolish I was. I was doing like this, doing like that." So right..., as soon as one comes to the right position, he, the symptom is he is prasannatma. What is that prasannatma? Na socati na kanksati. Prasannatma, happiness, means he has no more anything to hanker. Just like Dhruva Maharaja said, svamin krtartho 'smi varam: "I don't want any material benediction." Prahlada Maharaja said, "My Lord, don't tell You want me for any material benefit. I have seen so much afflict. My father was so big materialistic that even the demigods, they were afraid of him. You have finished it within a second. So I am not after these things." So this is real knowledge, that na socati na kanksati, he has no more hankering. The karmis, jnanis, yogis, they have got hankering. The karmis, they are hankering after how to get material wealth, how to get material position, how to get nice woman, how to get nice position. That is karmi. Their business--simply hankering, hankering. Bancruptcy (?). And if they have lost, they cry, "Oh, I have lost it, I have lost it, I have lost." Two business. So when one becomes self-realized, these two things are conspicuous by absence: no more hankering, no more lamenting. The karmis are hankering; the jnanis, they are also expecting to become one with God, to merge into the existence of God. That is also hankering. The yogis, they are hankering after some magic power so they can befool others that he has become God, "I can manufacture gold, I can fly in the sky," and foolish people after them. Intelligent person will see, "What is this perfection? Even if he can fly in the sky, there are so many birds are flying. What is the difference between this flying and that flying?" So he doesn't care. So these are not perfection. But they, people, foolish people, they think it is perfection. If one can say that "I will walk over the sea," actually say it shall happen, thousands and thousands fools will come. Just as, the same thing, that there is a man advertises that he will show how he can bark like dog, people will pay ten rupees ticket and go to see how a man is barking like a dog. But he doesn't hear so many dogs are barking, creating disturbance. So this is going on. Some extraordinary power, showing, making one karmi, jnani, yogi, but a devotee, he is so satisfied in the service of the Lord, he doesn't want anything, all this nonsense. That is perfection.
Hayagriva: You once mentioned that Greeks, the ancient Greeks were chased out of India where... They were ksatriyas chased out of India by Parasara Muni, something like that. But Socrates was confronted with a society that on one hand included what were called Sophists--these were more or less mental speculators; they were paid money to philosophize or to speculate--and humanists, who said, "Man is the measure of all things." They..., no belief in God or any higher force; nothing beside man. And with the demigod worshipers, the Greek pantheon of gods were very much like the demigods described in the Vedic literatures, like Zeus was like Indra, and Athena was like Sarasvati. They retained..., the Greeks retained their worship of the demigods, but there is no mention of a Supreme God under whom everyone else served, and Socrates, on..., neglected the worship of these demigods. He felt that there was no use in worshiping the demigods, and he stressed meditation on the self, on the highest good which resides in the heart, which must correspond to the Paramatma.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: And so in teaching this he was teaching something radically different, and this is one of the reasons that he was condemned to death--for blaspheming the demigods, for blaspheming the gods. He felt that the worship of these gods did not lead to self-realization at all.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's a fact. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita: kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah tyajante anya-devatah. They worship other demigods, being too much lusty. Because the demigod is worshiped for some material benefit. So they have been described as hrta-jnanah. Hrta-jnanah means one who has lost his intelligence. Actually it is so. Suppose by worshiping a demigod, Sarasvati, the goddess of learning, so you get the opportunity of being a, becoming a very nice scholar. But how long you shall remain scholar? As soon as the body is finished, your whole scholarship is finished. Then you have to accept another body, and you have to act according to that body. So how you have..., this scholarship will help you? But if you worship God, as Krsna says, that janma karma ca me divyam yo janati tattvatah... To worship God means to know God, actually what is God, more perfect--how He is managing, how material nature is working under Him. People cannot even imagine that God can be person, but here is everything person. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram: "Under My supervision the material nature is working." So these impersonalists or less intelligent persons, they cannot understand that how a person can dictate the wonderful activities of the material nature; therefore they remain impersonalist. But actually, person. That is the understanding of Bhagavad-gita. God is person. Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya: "There is no more superior authority than Me." So when He says mattah, that means there is a person, person. So...
Hayagriva: Bhakta.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: Bhakta.
Prabhupada: No, Krsna, God.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: God is person.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: And He says, mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya: "There is no more superior authority than Me." Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate: "I am the origin of everything. Everything emanates from Me." And the Vedanta-sutra confirms, "The Absolute Truth is that from which everything comes," janmady asya yatah. So the Absolute Truth is person, and Arjuna, when he understood Bhagavad-gita, he addressed Krsna, param brahma. That is Absolute Truth. Param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan. So really understanding Absolute Truth means to understand His personal feature. He has got three features: impersonal feature, localized feature and personal feature. So brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate. All of them are the same truth, spiritual truth, but different phases or different features. The example is given, just like you see one mountain from a very distant place, very distant place, you see the hazy something like cloud. Then you come nearer, you see something green, there are trees, like that. And if you will come still nearer, you will see, "No. It is not only trees and hazy but there are houses, there are men, there are animals." So actually the same thing, the mountain from a distant place, but because one is far away from the mountain, he sees the same mountains are impersonal, and if he comes little nearer, then he sees Paramatma, personal within, present everywhere. And when he comes again still, he sees the same person is still there; He is dancing and playing. This is the difference.
Hayagriva: So through jnana, through the path of jnana, Socrates may have realized Brahman, he may have realized Paramatma...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...but there was no way to realize...
Prabhupada: No, there is way...
Hayagriva: ...Krsna.
Prabhupada: ...there is way, if he makes further advancement. The same example, the same mountain is there. From a distant place you will say hazy cloud; nearer you see something green, there are trees; and still you go farther, you will see everything perfectly.
Hayagriva: But I thought Krsna can only be realized through bhakti, through...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...devotion.
Prabhupada: Yes. You can not enter in Krsna's place without being a purified bhakta. Bhaktya mam abhijanati. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. He never says that by jnana or by karma or by yoga one can understand Him. It is clearly stated, in many sastra, bhaktya mam abhijanati: only through devotional service one can understand Krsna. The personal abode of Krsna is especially reserved for the bhaktas. Therefore all jnanis, yogis, karmis, they cannot; they remain outside, that there is the sunshine and the sun. To enter into the sun is not so easy thing, but sunshine anyone can remain. The temperature is not so hot; you can tolerate it. But although the sunshine and the sun not different, in the sunshine, sun globe, if you enter, if you have go the power to enter, the same light and same temperature... Not same, I mean to say, temperature and light. So the temperature of sunshine, light and temperature, is not the same as the temperature and light in the sun globe. (break)
Hayagriva: Now Socrates, as a teacher, in addition to believing in the value of insight or meditation, Socrates also believed that knowledge can be imparted from one person to another. He therefore believed in the role of a guru or teacher, which he himself was for many people. He believed also in good association amongst people who were interested in self-realization, and he followed the method known as the Socratic dialogue as a means for evoking the truth. Now, he would use a method called Socratic irony, in which he himself, Socrates, would pose himself as an ignorant person and would ask questions of his young disciples. He would never offer the answers, but would try to draw the answers out of his disciples, and this was called the mayudic (?) method. So he considered himself to be a kind of midwife--in fact his mother was a midwife--who would draw the truth from the repository in the soul. He felt that the truth was there within but had to be drawn out, and that the truth is dormant within everyone, that the individual possesses the truth previous to birth in an existence previous to earthly existence.
Prabhupada: Yes. So almost similar to our method, because we advised, we advised in this Vedic principle, that for the truth one must approach a guru. That is the version everywhere. In Bhagavad-gita also, same instruction is there:
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti tad jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
So you have to approach a guru who knows the Absolute Truth. "Knows" means he has seen. Just like in our daily life, direct perception to see something, people argue on that, that "Can you show me God?" That is the tendency, that direct perception. So the direct perception is possible by advanced devotion. There is no difficulty because, as I have already explained, santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti. Constantly he is seeing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Syamasundara. So there is a state when one can constantly see the Supreme Lord as Paramatma sitting within his heart and taking advice from Him. Krsna also confirms this: buddhi-yogam dadami tam. He talks. So by meditation, if it is actually meditation to search out the Absolute Truth within the heart, then he can meet. That is the yoga practice. Yoga practice means concentrating the mind to see the Supersoul within. Therefore he has to control the activities of the senses from all other engagements. Then it is possible. Yoga practice, this dhyana, dharana, asana, pranayama, these are why? Simply to concentrate the mind, focusing toward the Paramatma, and then, when is perfect, he always sees. Therefore Krsna confirms it in the Bhagavad-gita:
yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gatenantar-atmana
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yuktatamo matah
"Of all the yogis, one who has learned to see Me within himself, he is first class." Others are bogus. The perfection of yoga means to see God within himself. That is perfection of yoga. So this process, as Socrates used to give chance to his disciple, that is good process, to give him chance to develop his understanding. The teacher helps. Just like the father and mother give the child. First of all he helps, taking his hand, "Now walk, walk," and sometimes he gives him pleasure: "Now you walk. Let me see how you walk. Now you walk." Although he sometimes falls down, but a father will encourage, "Oh, you are very nice. Stand up, stand up again. Walk." So give chance to the disciple how they can think properly to go back to home, back to Godhead, teacher is giving instruction and tries to see how he has developed. So that process is natural. And another process is that suppose a man comes to argue, so you should give him first chance, "All right, you say what is the import of these verses." Then he can understand his position, where he is. Then he captures him. Because an expert, he knows how to capture the fool. So let the fool first of all go on, talk all nonsense, then he'll understand where he is and he will capture. That is also a process.
Hayagriva: Socrates, in a very famous allegory or metaphor, pictures humanity living in a dark cave, and the teacher has seen the light outside of the cave. He knows that there's something outside the cave that is light, and he may return to the cave to tell people in the cave that this is darkness. And the people in the cave, many of them would consider him to be crazy for speaking of such a thing as the light outside of the cave, and that this was a very, conceivably a very dangerous position to be in.
Prabhupada: But actually that is the fact. Just like we are say so many times, Dr. Frog. A frog within the dark well, he is thinking, "Here is everything." And if he is informed, "Oh, there is big miles of water, Atlantic Ocean," so this Dr. Frog, from within the well he has never seen the Atlantic Ocean, and he cannot conceive that the water can be so expansive. So therefore those who are in the dark well, for them it is surprising that what is the light outside. But that's a fact. And one who has fallen, he is in the..., if he is crying that "I am fallen," so it is said that the man outside, he drops a rope, that "You catch this rope and I shall take it out." But he does not catch up. Just like we are presenting that you, everyone in the material world, you are suffering, you take, catch up this Krsna consciousness. They are refusing, or they do not admit; that is going on. But if one is fortunate, he can catch up the rope, and the man wants to help him, he can get him out. But he has to catch up. It is Krsna's advice also, that "You are crying, you are suffering, you are finding, trying to find out how your suffering will be ended." That materialist, they are doing their own way, and the impersonalists, they are doing in their own way; the yogis, they are doing in their own way. Everyone is trying to get out of the suffering. But when Krsna says that these things will not help you, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, he does not catch up. That is his misfortune. God Himself says that "You take." "You take Me" means by His instruction in the Bhagavad-gita. "You take to Me, you will be saved." But they will not. That is their obstinacy. And the Vedas therefore says, tamasi ma jyotir gamah: "Don't remain in the dark well. You come out to the light." But they will not come to the light. They want to remain in the dark well. And if you want to become perfect, that is their misfortune. Within this material world it is darkness, just like the, just now it is evening. It is giving us that actually it is dark. Because Krsna has supplied the sun, moon, therefore it is light. But there is another place where, without sun, without moon, you will get light. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: na yatra bhasayate suryo, na pavakah, like that, there is a na yatra bhasa, tad dhama paramam, "That is My kingdom." So everything is Krsna's kingdom, but there is specially, that there is no need of sunshine, there is no need of moonshine, there is no need of electric light; it is all effulgent. So He is giving the information, but these rascals will not take. They want to make adjustment in the darkness of night. How it is possible? This is teaching also the nature's way of work. The sun is in the sky, but the arrangement is such that twelve hours it is darkness and twelve hours it is light. But sun is there always. There is no doubt about it. But the arrangement, this is just to convince us that actually it is dark. With the sunshine it is sometimes day and sunny. Similarly, happiness can be by the..., to remain under this sunshine, under the illumination of Krsna. That is happiness, Krsna consciousness. And if you want to be happy in darkness... Just like in darkness at night the only happiness is sleeping and sex, that's all. There is no other happiness. And when there was dark in New York, electricity failed, and so many women became pregnant. (laughs) Yes. In the darkness this is the happiness: either you sleep or you enjoy sex. That is happiness. That is material world; therefore it is darkness. That is said in the Srimad-Bhagavatam:
srotavyadini rajendra
nrnam santi sahasrasah
apasyatam atma-tattvam
grhesu grha-medhinam
nidraya hriyate naktam
vyavayena ca va vayah
diva carthehaya rajan
kutumba-bharanena va
These materialistic persons, they have got many things to hear, srotavyadini, huge, big, big volumes of newspaper, so many rascal information. Why they have got so many engagement? Apasyatam atma-tattvam: because they do not know what is self-realization. Grhesu grha-medhinam. They think that to live in this family life surrounded by wife, children, friends, this is life. So better use this newspaper and talk all nonsense and waste time. Their engagement is nidraya. At night they sleep or enjoy sex, nidraya hriyate naktam vyavayena, and in daytime they hanker after money, runs the motorcar head-break speed, neck-break speed.
Hayagriva: Breakneck.
Prabhupada: Breakneck. And then what is the business? Searching out some means of food, exactly like the hog, he is loitering here and there, "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And this is going on in the polished way as civilization. There is so much risk, as running these cars so many people are dying. There is record, it is very dangerous. At least I feel as soon as I go to the street, it is dangerous. The motorcar are running so speedy, and what is the business? The business is where to find out food. So therefore it is condemned that this kind of civilization is hoggish civilization. This hog is running after, "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And you are running in a car. The same. Purpose is the same: "Where is stool?" Purpose is the same. Therefore this is not advancement of civilization. Advancement of civilization is, as Krsna advises, that you require food, so produce food grain. Remain wherever you are. You can produce food grain anywhere, a little labor. And keep cows, go-raksya, krsi-go-raksya vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam. Solve your problem like... Produce your food wherever you are there. Till little, little labor, and you will get your whole year's food. And distribute the food to the animal, cow, and eat yourself. The cow will eat the refuse. You take the rice, and the skin you give to the cow. From dahl you take the grain, and the skin you give to the... And fruit, you take the fruit, and the skin you give to the cow, and he will give you milk. So why should you kill him? Milk is the miraculous food; therefore Krsna says krsi-go-raksya vanijyam vaisya. Give protection to the cow, take milk from it, and eat food grains--your food problem is solved. Where is food problem? Why should you invent such civilization always full of anxieties, running the car here and there, and fight with other nation, and economic development? What is this civilization? Therefore we require to take to Krsna consciousness to become happy every way--economically, philosophically, religiously, culturally, everything. That is Krsna consciousness.
Hayagriva: One last point on Socrates. For Socrates...
Prabhupada: Now this so-called civilization is darkness. That is my point.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is not in the light. They are fighting within darkness. Just like if immediately this room become dark, everyone (indistinct). There is fighting. Stop it. You are asking me, "Prabhupada, where you are?" I say "Here," and you are going in the other room.
Hayagriva: Well he pictures in the cave the, something like a cinema, on the wall of the cave...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...and everyone is sitting in the cave looking, absorbed in the cinema, these forms that are not actual forms but are imitation forms.
Prabhupada: But that means darkness.
Hayagriva: Uh huh.
Prabhupada: Darkness, you are saying, "Prabhupada, I am here," and I am looking here: "Where you are?" So that is the position of darkness. Everything you see, it is not clear. That is darkness. Therefore Vedic version is, "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." That light is guru. Ajnana-timirandhasya jnananjana-salakaya. This is guru's description. When we are in darkness of ignorance the guru, spiritual master, ignites the torch of knowledge. Ajnana-timirandhasya jnananjana-salaka. Salakaya means torch. Then he sees, "Oh, things are like this." In this way, when he becomes self-realized, brahma-bhu, then he becomes happy, brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati. That is civilization, to get the light. And to remain in the darkness and struggle for existence, that is not civilization; that is animal life. It has no value. That is going on. Therefore we are trying to give Krsna consciousness, the greatest contribution to the human society. Krsna consciousness we are not manufacturing, we are not bluffing like other swamis and yogis and philosophers. We are simply carrying the light, torchlight, which Krsna has given. That's all. So our business is very easy--very easy and beneficial and practical.
Hayagriva: The good that Socrates speaks of is not the same as sattva-guna. This is a quotation from The Republic. Socrates says, "This, then, which gives to the objects of knowledge their truth and to him who knows them his power of knowing is the form or essential nature of goodness."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "It is the cause of knowledge and truth, and so while he may think of it as an object of knowledge, he would do well to regard it as something beyond truth and knowledge, and precious as these both are, of still higher worth. And just as in our analogy light and vision were to be thought of like the sun, but not identical with it, so here both knowledge and truth are to be regarded as like the good, but to identify either with the good is wrong. The good must hold a yet higher place of honor. The objects of knowledge derive from the good not only their power of being known, but their very being and reality, and goodness is not the same thing as being, but even beyond being, surpassing it in dignity and power."
Prabhupada: Yes. So goodness is the position where you can get knowledge. And passion and ignorance is not the platform of knowledge. Therefore the endeavor should be how to bring persons in the basic or base platform, ignorance and passion. So this is very easily done by our, this Krsna consciousness movement. If one hears about Krsna, or God, then gradually he becomes freed from the clutches of darkness and passion, and actually he then comes to the platform of goodness. And when he is perfectly in goodness, then this passion and ignorance and their by-products cannot touch him. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye.
nasta-prayesv abhadresu
nityam bhagavata-sevaya
bhagavaty uttama-sloke
bhaktir bhavati naisthiki
tada rajas-tamo-bhavah
kama-lobhadayas ca ye
ceta etair anaviddham...
If we hear Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita regularly, then we become free from the effects of the modes of ignorance and passion, gradually, although it takes... But it is sure. The more you hear about Krsna, or--Krsna means His instruction or about Him, what He is--the more you become purified. So that is the test, that how one has become purified means one is purified from the base quality of passion and ignorance, means that he is no more attacked by greediness and passion. That is the test. That means he is free from the base qualities, and he is situated, ceta etair anaviddham sthitam sattve prasidati. When he is no more disturbed by these base qualities of passion and greediness, then he is happy. Then he becomes happy. Ceta etair anavi..., sthitasya, that is goodness. That is goodness. Then he is happy, happiness, that the ultimate stage of goodness is brahma-bhutah, to realize himself, realize God. So goodness, one must come to the platform of goodness. So we are therefore asking people to give up these base qualitative activities--illicit sex and meat-eating and drinking or intoxication and gambling. These are base qualities. So anyone gives up these qualities, he remains in the sattva-guna. And then if he is promoted farther, just like Socrates said that goodness is not all, that still you have to..., and that is bhakti. Then his realization is perfect. He becomes liberated, and then gradually he develops love of God, then he is in the original state. Bhaktir hitva anyatha. As mukti, liberation, means that to be free from this all nonsense engagements. Nitya-baddha, they are engaged, all these karmis, jnanis, yogis, they are simply engaged in some false engagements to become happy. So when one is free from these false engagements, then he is in the liberated state. Mukti means muktir hitva anyatha rupam. Anyatha rupam means he is acting otherwise. So one has to come to the real position, not work, act otherwise. So he is eternal servant of Krsna. When he fully engage himself in the service of Krsna, then he is liberated, and if he keeps himself, then nobody can touch, the maya cannot touch. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya. Maya is very strong, but if one keeps in touch with Krsna constantly, maya has no jurisdiction. Mayam etam taranti te. This is perfection of life.
Hayagriva: Transcendental to the modes.
Prabhupada: Yes. No more affected by the modes of material nature. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. Such person is transcendental to the modes of material nature. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma. That is brahma-bhutah stage. So every devotee, if he is strictly following the rules and regulation, he is in the brahma-bhutah stage. Just like there is epidemic, but one who has taken the vaccine, the epidemic cannot touch it. So that is like that. Brahma, when you come to the brahma-bhutah state, let..., there may be maya, there may be so many activities of ignorance and passion--he has nothing to do with. He is free. That is brahma-bhutah state. That is wanted. That is perfection.
Hayagriva: So that's the conclusion of the additional notes on Socrates, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes, it was very, very nice.
Hayagriva: And if new philosophers that we will present eventually, oh, um, I don't know if these were ever...
Prabhupada: Actually the main philosophy is Socrates. He is (indistinct).
Hayagriva: Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, these have been done. Just a little, a few additions. But then there's Plotinus, Origen, and Augustine, and these were the three philosophers who shaped Christian thought or Catholic, the Church thought, Church fathers, and St. Anselm, St. Thomas Aquinas, Scotus and Eckhart, these are Christian...
Prabhupada: So they are not philosopher; they are Christian with different point of views. So we are not going to discuss with a person he is from the stand..., deviating from the standard way and thinking in their mental speculation.
Hayagriva: But these, these are considered philosophers...
Prabhupada: Considered, but because they belong to a certain sect of religion...
Hayagriva: Because they are followers of Christ?
Prabhupada: Yes. And they are deviating from the original Christian father, so they are useless.
Hayagriva: They do, they do deviate. They...
Prabhupada: No, you can not deviate. Then no more you are Christian. So you can..., you have no platform to talk from the Christianity. Therefore they should be rejected.
Hayagriva: Uh huh. So Plotinus was not Christian, neither was Origen...
Prabhupada: If you say Christian, you must follow the four..., ten commandments of Christ. If you don't follow, you make your own ways to escape, then you are no longer Christian. So you cannot talk.
Hayagriva: But Augustine was one of the ones who maintained that animals do not have souls.
Prabhupada: Therefore he is a rascal.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: He is a rascal.
Hayagriva: And this was accepted...
Prabhupada: Now, what do you, what do you use, what the use to talking with a rascal? It is waste of time. (end)
Philosophy Discussions PLATO.HAY
Plato
Hayagriva: This is the additional notations on Plato. For Plato, the spiritual world is not a mental conception. For Plato, truth is the same as the ultimate reality, the ideal or the highest good, and it is from this that all manifestations and cognitions flow. Plato uses the word "idea" in order to denote a subject's primordial existence, or maybe it's archetype. I think that Krsna uses the word bijam.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: Bijam, seed, "I am the seed of all existence"?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Hayagriva: For instance...
Prabhupada: Bijaham sarva-bhutanam. In Bhagavad-gita it is said, mattah sarvam pravartate, that even the spiritual world and material world, everything is emanation from Him. The difference is, in the material everything is created and maintained then annihilated. In the spiritual world that is not the case. Just like material world this body, and spiritual world the soul. The body is created, maintained and annihilated; the soul is not. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. After the destruction of the body, the spirit soul is not destroyed. What happens to him? He takes another body. And one who is perfect, he goes directly to Krsna, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti. So we can make this life... Because we are preparing for the next life, so why not take advantage of going back to home, back to Godhead? This is our mission. You have to prepare yourself either for going to the higher planetary system, yanti devan deva-vratah... You can go to the higher planetary system, you can go lower, and you can go to Godhead. So they, therefore, if I have to change this body and go elsewhere, why not go to God? That is intelligence. Now what is the advantage? If you go to God, then you will have..., haven't got to change any more this body. That is eternal, blissful. Therefore our intelligence should be utilized how to go to back to home, back to Godhead. That is intelligence.
Hayagriva: Now you said to Syamasundara that water existed before our mental conception of H2O. We concieve of H2O, we think of well, what is..., we begin to analyze water, and we say, well, it's two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen. But before we even began to think of this, water existed.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Therefore H2O is not the permanent essence or the primordial existence of water, but what Plato is saying is that everything that exists has its seed or essence or idea.
Prabhupada: Seed is originally with Krsna.
Hayagriva: Yes. The seed is, then, Krsna says bijam, "I am the seed..."
Prabhupada: Bija aham sarva-bhutanam. Whatever is manifest, the original God had.
Hayagriva: That... Is that the bijam is the unmanifest...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...is the unmanifest essence of an object.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Uh-huh. That...
Prabhupada: Just like the tree. Before manifestation it is a seed, but within that seed the whole tree is there.
Hayagriva: Plato would call that the idea or the archetype.
Prabhupada: That is not idea; that is fact.
Hayagriva: Not idea, fact.
Prabhupada: Fact. If you sow a seed of rose flower, it will come as rose tree. If you grow a seed of mango tree, it will come as mango tree. So it is not idea; it is fact. Simply it is in nascent state, but it is a fact. You cannot make your idea, "Now here is a seed, let it be mango tree." It will not make. If it is rose tree it will come rose tree. So your idea has no value. Seed means the nascent state.
Hayagriva: The na..., the...
Prabhupada: Nascent. What is called?
Hayagriva: Neh...?
Prabhupada: Nascent.
Hayagriva: Nescient?
Prabhupada: Yes, nascent. What is the...
Hayagriva: Nescent.
Prabhupada: What is spelling?
Hayagriva: N-e-s-c-e-n-t. To be..., not yet developed.
Prabhupada: Manifested, yes, yes.
Hayagriva: Plato states that the material world is restricted to limitations of time and space, whereas the spiritual world transcends time and space.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He also states that time began with the creation of the material world. And how does this comply with the Vedic statement that time is eternal?
Prabhupada: Yes, time is eternal. The present, past, present, the three features of time, it is relative. What is your past or your future, that is not past, future, of Brahma. Brahma lives for millions of years. So within millions of years I had many past, present and future. Present..., past, present and future is relative according to the person, but the time is eternal. That is the point. It is clear? The past, present, future is relative according to the body. Otherwise time is eternal. Time has no past, present, future.
Hari-sauri: That means like time is actually like presence?
Prabhupada: No. Presence... It is always present. Say just like a small germ, he lives for three minutes. So his past, present, future within three minutes, while I am living. So I am not within his past, present and future. Therefore past, present, future is relative. My past, present, future is different from the past, present, future of a small germ. That is the idea.
Hayagriva: Now, concerning the creation, Plato says that material nature, or prakrti, has always existed in a chaotic state, but that God takes prakrti and fashions it into form in order to create the universe. So in this sense God is the hand worker or the master designer. God is the creator of forms from pre-existent matter, and yet He does not create directly.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: It's stated...
Prabhupada: No. Just like I have created a machine to manufacture something. I am, I set on in motion, and the products is coming automatically, products are coming automatically.
Hayagriva: Automatically.
Prabhupada: Simply I have to set up the machine. Just like in a press, the machine has to be set up, and automatically you will see the magazines are coming all complete. The printing, the binding--everything complete; you simply take it now. There are many machines like that, that you set up the machine and simply stand and see how from the raw state it has come into the finishing state. So bijaham sarva-bhutanam. He has created such a seed that you sow the seed and that the tree will come. This is God's machine. He has created the seed only. Now the seed of the universe is coming from Him. Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya. He is breathing, and thousands and millions of seeds of universes are coming, and they are becoming manifested. Same way, seed. And when He is inhaling, everything is finished. So this manifestation and not manifestation is depending on His breathing process. When He is exhaling you see the manifestation; when He is inhaling, everything is finished. This is going on. So the cause of creation and annihilation is His breathing. So He is breathing always, but the process of creation and annihilation is going on. But if you think, "Krsna is breathing like me," then it is finished; your knowledge is finished. Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam. "Because I am speaking to these rascal like a human being, they are thinking Me as one of them." This is..., they are mudha. They are misled. As soon as he thinks Krsna is, "Ah, He is a person like me. He is born in Mathura, I have seen. How He becomes God?" Brahma was bewildered. "This boy, this cowherd boy is accepted as God. Let me test." Indra was misled. Muhyanti yat surayoh. Even big, big demigods, they are also bewildered. So Krsna answered them. Brahma had stolen all His calves and cows and friends, and when he came to see what He is doing, they were the same. He has expanded Himself. He is surprised. "Well I have actually taken His calves and cows. They are sleeping under my spell." Then he answered, "Yes, He is God." Then he is praying there, in the picture.
Hayagriva: Plato states that every object in the universe is made with some purpose, and its ideal goal is to move toward the ideal in which it's archetype or essence resides. So according to the Vedic version, Krsna is the all-attractive object of the universe; therefore all things must be moving toward Him. How is it the jiva apparently turns from Krsna to participate in the world of birth and death?
Prabhupada: That is maya. That is maya, illusion. He should not have deviated, but out of the influence of maya he is doing that and he is suffering. Therefore Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam. "You stop this plan-making. You simply surrender unto Me and do what I say, then you are happy." That is practical.
Hayagriva: Here is a famous quotation from Plato. He says, "God put intelligence in the soul and the soul in the body that He," that is God, "might be the creator of a work which was by nature best."
Prabhupada: We say that the living entity is part and parcel of God, mamaivamsa. Under the circumstances he has got almost all the qualities of God, but partially, because God is great and we are minute. So even though we have got all the qualities of God--not all, certain percentage, say seventy-eight percent--in minute quantity. Just like God has creative power, we have got also creative power. We have created the 747 flying machine. All right, get credit for that, but you cannot create a flying ball like sun floating in the sky. That is difference between God and me. You can take credit that you are keeping suspension in the air a big machine, 747, but it is not in your power that you can float millions and millions of planets floating in the air. That is not possible. Therefore God is great; I am small. That is real Krsna consciousness. And as soon as he says, "I am as good or as great as God," then He is a rascal. That is Mayavadi. He is in maya. Just like one man in India, he is showing some jugglery. He makes like this and creates some gold, a little gold, but foolish people are enamored. "Ah, he is God." But we are not enamored, but we know that he may create a small piece of gold, but God has created many millions of gold mines. So if creation of gold is the standard of becoming God, then why shall we accept this tiny man as God, who has created the mines, not only one mine, in this planet there are hundreds and thousands of gold mines and there are so many planets. There are, there is, I was reading this, Trikuta, Trikuta mountain, eight thousand miles high, eight thousand miles wide and long, and it has got three big, big peaks. One is of iron, one is of silver, and one is of gold. So the mountain, eight thousand miles high, peak gold, silver. So who can manufacture such gold? You cannot manufacture gold. That is not possible. So even you may so-called manufacture that, can you manufacture the peak of gold?
Hayagriva: No. (laughs) It tarnishes.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: It tarnishes in time. It doesn't remain.
Prabhupada: One king, by the grace of Lord Siva, he got information in the Himalaya some spot of gold, so he hugely manufactured gold utensils. And the yajna, everything is gold, and the brahmanas are given gold plates and gold. And they, in those days brahmanas are not greedy, so they thought, "Who carries this weight? Throw it. It is bothersome." The king thought that "I am giving a very valuable, contributing charity," but they thought that "What is this utensils? I have to carry this. Throw it." So they are stacked up. So when Maharaja Yudhisthira finished his whole treasury on account of the war and he wanted to perform yajna, he asked Arjuna, "You bring some money somewhere." So Arjuna was little perplexed. Krsna gave him this information: "You go there. There is stack of gold utensils you can bring." So when he brought it, his name was Dhananjaya, "conquering over wealth." There are so many gold peaks, gold mines. Who cares for that? Those who are materialistic person, they will give some man, and those who are Krsna conscious, they will see, "What I have to do with all gold? I require some money for making propagation. Otherwise what is the use of stacking gold? There is no use."
Hayagriva: Plato believes that at death there is an end of the sensory life of the individual--his thoughts, his perceptions and experiences--and the individual then returns to the ideal world from which he came.
Prabhupada: That means he believes in eternity. This loss of senses, that is we also accept that there are three stages: jagrati, awakening, and sleeping and deep sleeping. So deep sleeping means unconsciousness. So when a man dies from awakening state, he enters into the dreaming state and then enters into the deep sleeping state. So transmigration of the soul means he gives up this gross body, and the subtle body, mind, intelligence carries him to the another body, and in another body, unless the body is prepared properly, he lives in deep sleep. And when the body is prepared at seven months for human being, then he comes to consciousness. He feels, "Oh, why I am put into this packed-up status." If he is pious he feels very uncomfortable. He prays to God--these things are described--that "Kindly excuse me from this awkward position. Now this time I shall become a devotee." This is position. The soul is immortal, but still he enters into different stages of life. Then when he comes out, the same different stages of body continues. In childhood he is something different from his boyhood; boyhood something different from youthhood; and he is the same, but he is passing through different... That is called evolution. So when he comes to the perfect stage of Krsna consciousness, then his life is successful. Just like a flower, in the bud stage, in the fructified stage, in the blooming stage, and when it is fully bloomed it looks very nice, beautiful. Similarly, when by gradual development when you come to the stage of Krsna consciousness, then our whole beauty is revealed.
Hayagriva: He also stressed the process of remembering. It's called the, his, Plato's doctrine of recollection. And he says you can ask a boy, who may be ignorant of a subject, you can elicit answers from him, and this answers, he may give you the right answers, and this would suggest that he acquired this knowledge in a previous existence.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore we find a student in school is very intelligent and less intelligent. Otherwise both of them of the same age, why one is more intelligent, he grasps the matter very quickly, and why the other is not so intelligent? This is everything that putra-janma drdham vidya putra-janma drdham dhanam. (indistinct) The two things especially, knowledge, education and money, they are earned in the previous birth, not that all of a sudden one has become rich, all of a sudden one has become very learned man. No. It is continuous. So if one man is extraordinarily learned, it is to be understood that it is the result of his previous culture. Similarly, if anyone is extraordinarily rich, it is to be understood it is due to his past pious activities. Janmaisvarya-sruta-sri, these four things are achieved on account of previous pious activities: good birth, good opulence, aisvarya, and good education, and good beauty. These are the results of pious, good activities. So you can see practically in your country between the black and white. The white men are more advanced in everything, and the black man, although he has got the same facilities, they are in inferior position. Why? It is putra-janma drdham. That is the proof of past life. But so far we are concerned, we are not concerned about one black man or white man. Both of them are in the clutches of maya. We want to educate all of them to Krsna consciousness, and they have got equal opportunity, it is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanah. Never mind what is his body, if he is willing to become trained to Krsna consciousness, that is the platform of the soul, that we can do.
Hayagriva: Now for Plato, perfect happiness is in attempting to become godlike.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: Perfect happiness is in attempting to become godlike.
Prabhupada: Godlike?
Hayagriva: Godlike, godly.
Prabhupada: Godly, yes.
Hayagriva: Insofar as man resembles God, he is ethical. Evil forces within man combat his efforts to attain this ultimate goal. Plato is not a determinist. He emphasized freedom of the will and insisted that evil acts are due to man's failure to live up to his responsibility. They do not come from God, who is all-good.
Prabhupada: Everything comes from God, but we have to make our choice. This ideal example: that the university comes from the government and the prison house also comes from the government, but the prison house is meant for the criminal and the university is meant for the highly learned scholar. The government spends money in both the departments to maintain it; therefore, so far government's recognition is concerned, it has to be maintained. But it is we, we make our selection whether go to the prison house or go to the university. That is, that little independence is there in every human being. We have to make our choice.
Hayagriva: He says that perfection within the world of the senses can never be attained...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...and Krsna says something like that, um...
Prabhupada: Yes, that Krsna says...
Hayagriva: "Imperfections..., there will always be imperfections like smoke and fire," something like that.
Prabhupada: Yes, that, uh, He says that everything has got some defect, material. Even the fire, so powerful, so fire has also some defect: the smoke. So apart from that imperfection, if we execute our prescribed duties exactly in the way as it is enjoined in the sastra, that even there is some defect, still we can get perfection. Just like Krsna consciousness movement is giving chance, everyone, to become perfect by his own work. It doesn't matter brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or what means according to Vedic civilization, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. So brahmana is giving knowledge, ksatriya is giving protection, vaisya is giving food, and sudra is general help to everyone. So if the whole thing is done under the direction of the brahmana, ksatriya executes the orders of the brahmana, and the vaisyas supply food--because food is required, that is materially required--then everything is perfect. (break) (aside with Hari-sauri regarding tape recorder)
Hayagriva: All right, this is... Later in The Republic, in the allegory of the cave, we mentioned before, Socrates says, "In the world of knowledge, the last thing to be perceived, and only with great difficulty, is the essential form of goodness. Once it is perceived, the conclusion must follow that for all things, this is the cause of whatever is right and good. In the visible world it gives birth to light and to the Lord of light while it is itself sovereign in the intelligible world and the parent of the intelligible world and the parent of intelligence and truth. Without having had a vision of this Form," he uses capital "F," Form, "no one can act with wisdom either in his own life or in matters of state." And here, he, Socrates mentions form but he doesn't mention personality. He mentions the form of goodness, but through intellection, or jnana, how is it possible to perceive the form of God or the form of goodness? What could he possibly mean by...
Prabhupada: That is from Vedic same. As soon as there is instruction there is form. As Krsna is giving instruction, He is always saying "I," "you," like that, it is personal. He says Arjuna, "You," and He says Himself, "I." So Arjuna is also form and Krsna is also form, and Krsna also says that "Both you, Me, and all these living entities, kings and soldiers who are assembled here, they existed in the past, they are existing now, and they will continue to exist." So you can understand that "In the present I am in form, so I existed in the past in form and I shall continue to exist in the future as form. So where is formless?" From my present position I can understand my past and future. So Krsna says that we existed in the past. So we existing now, now I mean to say, continuing. He never said that "In the past we were formless; now we have got form." This is not stated there. Rather, He condemns, that avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah: "In the past I was formless, impersonal, and now I am a person," that is Mayavadi thought, that when God takes the form, He takes the form of maya. So they have been condemned as abuddhayah, no intelligence. Avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah. Those who have less intelligence, they think like that, that "God was formerly formless, now He is talking in form, that means He has accepted the body of maya." This is called Mayavada philosophy.
Hayagriva: Concerning education, he says, "We must conclude that education is not what it is said to be by some who profess to put knowledge into a soul which does not possess it, as if they can put sight into blind eyes. On the contrary, our own account signifies that the soul of every man does possess the power of learning the truth and the organ to see it with, and that just as one might have to turn the whole body around in order that the eye should see light instead of darkness, so the entire soul must be turned away from this changing world until its eye can bear to contemplate reality and that supreme splendor which we have called good. Hence there may well be an art whose aim would be to effect this very thing, the conversion of the soul, in the readiest way, not to put the power of sight into the soul's eye, which already has it, but to insure that instead of looking in the wrong direction, it is turned the way it ought to be.
Prabhupada: That is Krsna consciousness movement.
Hayagriva: That.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Yes. It's that art, he says.
Prabhupada: It is an art, that our aim of life by these sensually affected senses... At the present moment we are sensually affected. I want to eat something which is very palatable, I eat it. I do not care whether this palatable eating will mislead me or lead me to the proper way. Therefore we are making this propaganda. So your eating process is not stopped. You eat, but don't eat meat, you eat Krsna prasadam. So if we agree to this process, then gradually we become purified by Krsna consciousness. Our aim, objective, is attained. This is Krsna consciousness. Don't stop eating. No sensual activities are stopped. The eyes, in the material way, the eyes want to see very beautiful objective. We say, "Yes, you see the beautiful Krsna. You taste Krsna prasadam." Everything is there; simply we purify. Param drstva nivartate. If this process is accepted, then when he sees real beauty, real food, real, then he becomes satisfied. That is wanted.
Hayagriva: Well, one last point is that neither Socrates, Plato or Aristotle ever mentions service to God; rather, they always speak of contemplation of God's reality or the Supreme Splendor. It's always contemplation, meditation. Is this typical of the jnani? Or... There's no mention of service.
Prabhupada: No, this is the process of knowing God. They are partially helpful to know God as He is, but when he actually comes to know God, he sees that "He is the great and I am the small." So the business of the small is to serve the great. That is nature's way. We practically see in our daily life, because you are small you are going to serve a big factory. Otherwise you have no other way. So everyone is serving, but when he realizes that "I am serving. I am not the master," that is the position actually. Ask anybody in this world whether he is master or serving, the conclusion will be that he is serving. His natural position is to serve. So if one hasn't got a family to serve, he keeps a dozen of dog to serve. That is going on, and especially in the Western countries we see that at the old age, when he has no children, so he keeps a dog or two or three pets to serve. So the serving position is already there, and when the servant wants to become master, that is maya. Because this word maya means actually he is serving and he is thinking that he is master. That is maya. Maya means what is not fact. So by meditation, when he actually becomes a realized soul, he will understand that "Oh, I am servant. So why I am serving maya? Let me serve Krsna." That is perfection. So if his guide, spiritual master, engages him from the very beginning to serve God, then he becomes quickly perfect, because he is servant and he has to serve Krsna. That is his perfection. He is falsely thinking that he is master. That is maya. Here also they are simply serving. Just like President Nixon. He thought himself, "I am the master of America." But actually he is not. The master is the public. As soon as the public wanted "You come down immediately," he had to do that. So if the president of big state, he is under the false impression that although he is serving he is thinking master, then what to speak of others? Everyone is serving, but he is thinking master. So perfect knowledge is there that when he comes to the platform that "God is the supreme master, He is great, and we are servant." That is perfection of life.
Hayagriva: In his Politics, Plato changes his mind later in life. In the beginning he believed that in an ideal state the leaders should possess nothing of their own, neither property nor family. He felt that they must live together in a community where wives and children are held in common to guard against corruption, bribery and nepotism in government. He felt that the elite philosophers should mate with women of high qualities in order to produce the best children for positions of responsibility. Now, how does this view of common wives and children correspond to the Vedic version?
Prabhupada: Yes, Vedic civilization is that, that putrarthe kriyate bharya. A man should accept a wife for putra, for son. Why son? Putra-pinda-prayojanam: a putra should be responsible for offering pinda, so that after death, even by mistake or somehow or other I am in a wrong position, by the pinda I am elevated. This is idea. So marriage is for having good son, that's a fact, who will deliver me even if I am in the hell. Therefore the sraddha ceremony in there. So even the father is in hell, by this sraddha ceremony he will be delivered. This is the idea. So unless one has got son, nobody is going to offer him sraddha oblation, and even one may be very benevolent, but it is not expected. But it is the duty of the son, as it is said, putra. Pu means there is a hell pundama (?). The hell's name is pundama, pun. So I mean, pu and tra, tra means one who delivers. If by chance I am put into pundama naraka trayate, one who delivers me from that hellish condition of life, he is putra, and for this kind of putra I accept a wife, not for my sex enjoyment. And it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, one who uses his sex for these religious activities, that "I shall get good father, a good son who can deliver me," then marriage is required. Otherwise it is useless. Dharmaviruddho kamo 'smi. Krsna says, "Sex life which is not against religious principle, that is I am." And sex life which is, which has no religious principle, that is sense gratification leading one to hell. So this theory: that we should marry, we should have sex life for creating good progeny. And my Guru Maharaja used to say--he was a sannyasi brahmacari--but he said that "If I could produce really Krsna conscious children, I can use hundred times sex life. Otherwise why shall I use my sex for cat, producing cats and dog?" He has said like that. So the sastra also says, pita na sa syat janani na sa syat: the father's, mother's duty is how to rescue their children from the cycle of birth and death. That is real father and mother. Otherwise cats and dogs, they are also father and mother. That is not wanted. Vedic culture is different. Produce children for such education and such accomplishment that he can be saved from the cycle of birth and death, and the putra should be such qualified that even his father goes to the hellish condition of pundama, he will deliver him. That is the idea of becoming father and family.
Hayagriva: He believed that the best form of government is an enlightened monarchy, enlightened monarchy.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That is we say, rajarsi, rajarsi. Imam rajarsayo viduh. Rajarsi means king, at the same time saintly.
Hayagriva: Saintly.
Prabhupada: That is idea. He has taken these ideas from the Vedic literature.
Hayagriva: When this form degenerates, it becomes a tyranny.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: When it degenerates.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: The second best form is an aristocracy, and when it deteriorates it becomes an oligarchy, rule of corrupt men. And he considered democracy to be one of the worst forms of government...
Prabhupada: Yes, that is my, I have said...
Hayagriva: ...for when it deteriorates, it degenerates into mob rule.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, that's a fact, very good. But the best thing is monarchy, because if the monarch is rajarsi, he is not only king... That is necessary. Krsna wants that, that the government should be ruled; therefore we praise, offer so much respect to Maharaja Yudhisthira, Maharaja Pariksit and Lord Ramacandra, how to become an ideal king. He is Personality of Godhead. He showed how to become Rama-rajya. So this is very good because it is not expensive. One man is maintained by the state very nicely, and nowadays these democracies' mob rule means instead of one king there are 300,000 kings in a state, and they are looting the hard-earned money by income tax, and everything is so polluted. So the condemnation of democracy is supported by us. It is mob rule. It has no value.
Hayagriva: Socrates and Plato.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Hayagriva: They had city states that were, uh...
Prabhupada: Mini-states.
Hayagriva: ...democracy. They were, they were so small that everyone could get together.
Prabhupada: Pancayat, in India it was pancayat. So each man of the village, it is to reduce the responsibility of the state if that small cases, the pancayat, some of the important men of the village they would sit together, and whatever they will decide, that the state will accept, court will accept. So minimize the responsibility of the court in deciding several cases. So in the India the Pancayat system is there.
Hayagriva: The what?
Prabhupada: Panca, Pancayat means...
Hayagriva: Pancat?
Prabhupada: Panca.
Hayagriva: Panca.
Prabhupada: Panca means five, five selected men from the village sit down and decide the case. That will be accepted by the government.
Hayagriva: Greece, Greece was not a country as such; it was composed of small towns or cities, and Athens was...
Prabhupada: Anywhere.
Hayagriva: ...Athens was the biggest, and everyone got together and the wisest men spoke, and they voted on their decisions.
Prabhupada: That is the beginning of Parliament.
Hayagriva: Parliament.
Prabhupada: So in monarchy also there was council of learned men, brahmanas, great saintly persons. Even Maharaja Yudhisthira was guided like that. Lord Ramacandra was guided. That is the system. Even monarchy was there, still he was advised by learned scholars and brahmanas and saintly persons, and he would do according to their decision. And Vena Maharaja, he was not ruling. The brahmanas came, advised him, "My dear King, you are not doing nicely. You should do like this." And when he refused, then he was killed, and his son Prthu Maharaja was give charge. So-called democracy is ludicrous, that's a fact. All fools and rascals bribing, and this way and that way they have taken post, and when they go to the post, simply squander money, that's all. Just they take bribes from big, big men, that "I will give you, repay you ten times, you give me money."
Hari-sauri: The system of continuously changing the government every four years means that...
Prabhupada: Every four days!
Devotee: For four years that "I'll take advantage as much as possible for my personal gain, and then retire rich."
Prabhupada: It is very, a very dangerous position, this so-called democracy. Nobody cares for it. So sometimes this emergency is required, but if it is used again for personal aggrandizement, then it is also. Actually, the perfection of government is monarchy, and the monarchy, monarch should be ideal rajarsi. That is the Indian's, Vedic system. The Vedic system was there everywhere; therefore still there are monarchs. But they are simply maintaining the monarchy, but actually monarch has no power.
Hayagriva: I think in the history of the West all the monarchs have been ogres except maybe with the exception of Constantine, who was a Christian monarch, and I think that was the only one.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: But it was not...
Prabhupada: Monarch, that is the idea, rajarsi. Raja and rsi. He is in the position of raja, but he is actually a great sage. That is required. Then everything will be perfect. Rajarsayo viduh, Krsna says. And if the monarch, the chief man in the state, he understands Bhagavad-gita, then everything will be immediately perfect. Everything, immediate. Formerly the kings were (indistinct). Imam rajarsayo viduh, it clearly stated. But the, there is no monarchy, and all loafer class they are taking charge of government. They do not know. Why they will know it? They have gone there for getting some money. "I am now in position, get that much money (indistinct)." They know, "After five years I will be nowhere, so let me accumulate some money while I am on the ministerial post." This is going on. Who cares for the good of the citizen? If we discuss these things, it will be great criticism, but this is the position. (end)
Philosophy Discussions ARIS.HAY
Aristotle
Hayagriva: ...quotations on Aristotle. Aristotle believes that God expresses Himself through matter, although he also believes that God is transcendent and separate from the universe.
Prabhupada: He believes some way and other believes some way, so which is..., which one is correct?
Hayagriva: He does not follow Plato's dualism of the "here" and the "there." Plato made a sharp distinction between the material universe and the spiritual universe, but Aristotle believes there is no sharp distinction because God expresses Himself in matter. Since matter is simply one of God's energies, the finite reflects the infinite.
Prabhupada: So what is the other energy? Does he know?
Hayagriva: He doesn't concern himself with that. He says that by knowing something of the world about us, we can know something about God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: So his, his...
Prabhupada: It may be that you know something about God. Then you have to admit that you do not know everything about God. So their knowledge is imperfect. Our point is that we know everything of God from God. So that knowledge is perfect. As Krsna said in the Seventh Chapter, that mayy asakta-manah partha yogam yunjan mad-asrayah. "If you concentrate your mind on your attachment to Me, and if you execute yoga meditation, always thinking of Krsna, that is Krsna consciousness. Then you understand Me fully and without any doubt." So instead of speculating in God, if we simply think of God, that will help us. To escape from darkness, if you speculate about the sun by some suggestion, by some concoction, this is one kind of knowledge. But if you actually come out of the darkness and see the sun, then it is complete (indistinct).
Hayagriva: Now...
Prabhupada: These Western philosophers, mostly they are contemplating about the sunshine in darkness. But that is not the way of understanding the sun. Best thing is to come in the sunshine, see yourself, see the sunshine, see the sun. There is (indistinct).
Hayagriva: Here's another point. Aristotle says that it is not material objects that are trying to realize God, like as Plato says, but God realizing Himself through material objects. God does this in a variegated way and in an infinite way. So God realizes the potentiality of a rose or of a man by creating a rose, a flower, a man that is perceivable by the material senses. So the world is more real to Aristotle than it is to Plato.
Prabhupada: If God has created the material world and material variety, so means He is in full awareness how to do things nicely. That is perfectness of God. He knows everything how to do it perfectly, naturally. Just like even a child, we get daily experience, when we offer some cake in the Deity room, the child immediately takes it and puts in the mouth. Although she is very small baby, (s)he doesn't require any education about taking the cake and what to do with it. Immediately puts in the mouth. So this natural, what is called, knowledge, that is God's knowledge. He knows everything perfectly well, and when He produces a rose flower, it is all-perfect. That is God's... God is not..., He has to get the knowledge through some source. He is already in awareness of everything. That is God. So He hasn't got to know His capacity through matter.
Hayagriva: Now Aristotle would say that the flower is real because it has its basis in the ultimate reality, God.
Prabhupada: That..., how God can be not in knowledge? He is full in knowledge. That is God.
Hayagriva: Plato would say that the flower is a shadow of reality, a perverted reflection of reality. So which point of view would be...?
Prabhupada: Yes, it is... When the flower is in the material world..., material world is perverted reflection of the spiritual world. That's a fact. We have got experience that material things are created, but in the spiritual world things are not created; they are already there, everlasting. So it appears Aristotle has no knowledge of the spiritual world.
Hayagriva: Aristotle defines God as pure form and pure act and purely nonmaterial. He is absolute spirit and is the unmoved mover.
Prabhupada: Yes. He is absolute spirit, there is no doubt upon it, but why He should come to know Himself through material world? That is defective.
Hayagriva: Aristotle's God contemplates Himself. He does not have any knowledge of the world...
Prabhupada: Who?
Hayagriva: ...as such.
Prabhupada: Who has no knowledge?
Hayagriva: God.
Prabhupada: What kind of God is that?
Hayagriva: I don't know.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) This is Aristotle's ignorance, that he does not know what is God and he is speaking about God. That is his ignorance.
Hayagriva: Nor, he says, nor can God return the love that He receives. He doesn't love or care for mankind.
Prabhupada: So He is in perfect knowledge, then why He should not reciprocate? So God reciprocates. It is said in the Bhagavad-gita, ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham. As much as we offer our love to God, He, what is called, cooperates, cooperative response. When we fully surrender and fully in loving service, then we can understand God, what He is actually.
Hayagriva: Aristotle sees the love going one way. He says that God is loved by everything in the universe and that He attracts all objects in the universe because everything is striving toward Him and longing for Him.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: But there is no mention of God as a person, although he says He's pure form. Is this an imagined form like the Mayavadis may imagine a form?
Prabhupada: Yes. He has got the tilt of Mayavada. That is his imperfect knowledge of God. Because he does not receive knowledge from God, he speculates; therefore his knowledge is imperfect.
Hayagriva: Aristotle's belief in the soul changed. He has three conceptions of the soul. One is that the soul is a separate substance, another is that the body is the instrument of the soul, and the third is the soul is the form of the body.
Prabhupada: Yes, this can be explained. The body is just like the dress of the soul. So our dress is made according to our body. The tailor takes the measurement of the body and makes the coat accordingly. So the coat appears with the hand because we have got hand. Coat, pant appears as a leg because we have got leg. So this body is simply a, what is called, coating or shirting of the soul. Actually the soul has got form, shape, form, and therefore the cloth, which will generally have no shape, is, when it comes in contact with the soul, it becomes a shape.
Hayagriva: Now for both Plato and Aristotle, God is known by reason, not by revelation or by religious experience, not by mystical experience...
Prabhupada: That is nonsense. You cannot... God is unlimited. You have got limited power to see or to smell or to touch. You have got all limited, and God is unlimited. So you cannot understand God by your limited power of sensual activities. Therefore God is revelation. We say that atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih. You cannot understand by speculating your senses. That is not possible. When you engage yourself in His service, then He reveals. Naham prakasah sarvasya yoga-maya-samavrtah. God says that "I am not exposed to everyone. I am covered by the yoga-maya." That is fact. So unless God reveals Himself... So God not only reveals, He appears, and great authorities, they are searching. Just like Krsna appeared, and great authorities like Vyasadeva, Narada, Sukadeva Gosvami and then the acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya and Caitanya Mahaprabhu--big, big stalwart scholars and transcendentalists--they accepted Krsna. All the sastras accept Krsna. Long, long years, five thousand years, when there was no philosophy in the Western world, God revealed Himself, face to face. Arjuna saw Him and he accepted Him. And similarly other great persons accepted Him. So God is not to be speculated, but by one's service, when He is pleased, He reveals Himself.
Hayagriva: There is a great deal of emphasis in Aristotle on reason. He says happiness depends on man's acting in a rational way. The rational way is the virtuous way. The virtuous way is the way of intellectual insight. There is a suggestion of sense control but no bhakti. So is it possible to obtain happiness simply by controlling the senses by the mind?
Prabhupada: Yes. So that is the process of becoming a human being. The lower beings, animals, they do not know this process. Just like they are busy only for sense gratification--eating, sleeping, mating and defense, their only business. But a human being can be engaged by proper guidance in contemplation. Just like Aristotle is contemplating or Plato is con..., this is human being's business. But such contemplation should be guided by authorities. Otherwise one can contemplate with his limited senses for many, many millions of years, it will be impossible to understand what is God.
Hayagriva: But for happiness, or ananda, isn't bhakti essential, love, or ananda?
Prabhupada: Ananda means... God is full ananda, sac-cid-ananda. He is eternal, sat; He is spiritual; and He is ananda, bliss. So unless one comes in contact with God, there is no question of ananda. (Sanskrit). In the Vedic literatures we understand that God is reservoir of all pleasure, unlimited. So when you come in contact with God, then you will taste what is pleasure. So material pleasure is only perverted reflection of the real pleasure. Real pleasure is possible when we come in contact with God.
Hayagriva: In his Ethics, Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle writes, "Moral excellence is concerned with pleasure and pain. It is pleasure that makes us do base or ignoble action, and pain that prevents us from doing noble actions. For that reason," as Plato says, "men must be brought up from childhood to feel pleasure and pain at the proper things, for this is correct education." So how does this correspond to the Vedic view of education?
Prabhupada: Vedic view of education is, actually there is no pleasure in this material world, because we may arrange for all pleasure artificially in the material world, but all of sudden one has to die. So where is the pleasure? If you make arrangement of all pleasure and all of a sudden death comes upon you, then where is pleasure? So first of all they must, if they are intelligent, they must make arrangement that they will be able to enjoy the pleasures they have created. Otherwise, where is pleasure? It is disappointment. That is going on. They are trying to become pleased by inventing so many things, but because they are controlled by some superior element, so at any moment they will be kicked out of the pleasure platform. Then where is pleasure? Therefore the conclusion should be: there is no pleasure in this material world. If one is searching after pleasure in the material world, then it is the same thing as the animal is searching water in the desert. There is no water in the desert; it is simply illusion, and he is preparing for death. Because he is thirsty, he is searching after water, and in the wrong way he is searching water. The ultimate result will be he will die of thirst.
Hayagriva: One last statement from Aristotle. He states, in his Politics, he says, "The beauty of the body is seen, whereas the beauty of the soul is not seen." Is this true?
Prabhupada: Beauty of the soul is real beauty, and beauty of the body is superficial. Not every body is beautiful. There are so many bodies very ugly, and there are so many bodies very beautiful. So the material sense, this ugliness and beautifulness, they are all artificial. But the beauty of the soul is real; that is not artificial. So unless we see the beauty of the Supersoul, Krsna, we have no idea what is actually beauty. Therefore devotees, they want to see the beauty of Krsna, not any artificial beauty of this material world.
Hayagriva: There's no correspondence there. That is to say, a beautiful body does not necessarily house a beautiful soul. There's no correspondence.
Prabhupada: No, there is correspondence, because we say this material world is perverted reflection. So originally the soul is beauty, but here the beauty is covered. But we can simply have a glimpse of the real beauty from the material covering, but we have to wait to see the beauty of the soul. That is real point.
Hayagriva: I read that Socrates was a very ugly man but that he had a very beautiful soul, and people were attracted to his soul. That was the, supposedly...
Prabhupada: Yes. The example can be given that the quail, it is called kokil, it is very black, just like crow. But when you vibrates the voice, it is so beautiful that people are attracted. So the beauty of the body is secondary. The beauty of the soul is primary. So just like a mudha, a illiterate man, nicely dressed--he is beautiful so long he does not speak. And as soon as he speaks, we can understand what is his position. So dhavaca so vate mudha yavad kincid na vasa (?). A ugly, illiterate rascal, fool, is beautiful so long he does not speak, and as soon as he speaks we can understand what is his position. So this external beauty is no beauty. If an ugly man, if he speaks very nicely, he will attract so many people, and if a beautiful man, if he speaks nonsense, nobody cares for him. So real attraction is different and artificial is different.
Hayagriva: I think that concludes Aristotle. (end)
Philosophy Discussions PLOTINUS.HAY
Plotinus
Hayagriva: This is Plotinus. Plotinus lived from 204-269 A.D. He was not Christian. He took... He's what's called a neo-Platonist, a new Platonist. Much of his philosophy comes from Plato. But he believed in the theory of emanation, that the soul emanates from the intelligence, what Aristotle called the nous, or the intelligence, and the intelligence emanates from the One, what he calls the One, who is omnipresent, transcendental, the cause of all multiplicities, the Lord of all. So there's a hierarchy in Plotinus of the One, the intelligence, and the individual souls.
Prabhupada: The One is Vedic conception, ekam brahma dvitiyam nasti, Supreme Truth, Absolute Truth, advaya-jnana. So this is our philosophy, that these living entities, soul, they are of the same quality as the one Supreme, but they are fragmental parts, emanation from Him. He has got the same intelligence, same mind, but limited jurisdiction. God is... That One is omnipresent, but we are not omnipresent, but we are present. Omniscient; but we are not omniscient, but we are sentient, not that dull matter. In this way, that One has got all spiritual qualities in fullness; we have got spiritual qualities in minute quantity. That is our constitutional position. But we are like sparks, and the Supreme One is like big fire. When we leave the association of the big fire, as sparks we become extinguished, means our illumination stops. That is called maya, maya andhakara, darkness. That we can revive also, again be put with the One and revive our illuminating power, spiritual power, and live with the Supreme One peacefully, eternal life of bliss.
Hayagriva: Plotinus is an impersonalist. He believed that attributing attributes to God limit God.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: He believes that attributing qualities to God necessarily limit God, so he's an impersonalist.
Prabhupada: Limit?
Hayagriva: Limit. Any attribute or quality is by necessary limiting. This is a typical impersonalist stand.
Prabhupada: If he is...
Hayagriva: That the One, the One is transcendental, but there's no multiplicity in Him. That means im..., impersonal. Although He is the cause of all multiplicities, He is the cause of all living entities, He Himself...
Prabhupada: Yes, He is the cause of all living entities. That is Vedic conception. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. He is the chief amongst the eternals, chief amongst the sentients, but unless He has got unlimited transcendental qualities, how He can be omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, all-powerful? That is not perfection. A perfect conception of the Supreme One: He is unlimited, we are limited. That is sense. How the Supreme One, who is the cause of everything, He can be limited? I do not know what do they mean by "limit." He cannot be limited by anything. Even the impersonal Brahman, that Brahman, sarvam khalv idam brahma: everything is Brahman, unlimited. Why He should be limited? Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani: everything is emanation from Him and resting in Him. That is His impersonal conception. Everywhere He is there. And personal is localized, and..., but from the person, the impersonal effulgence come out. That we understand from the Bhagavad-gita: brahmanah aham pratistha. As the big sunshine comes from the localized sun globe--the sun globe is situated in one place, but this, the rays of the sun is distributed all over the universe--similarly, impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth is that by His transcendental rays, prabha, yasya prabha prabhavata, illumination. Just like the fire has got heat and light. It expands. So the impersonal feature of the Lord expands unlimitedly, and the Personality, it appears that He is limited, but He is unlimited by His energy. That is the perfect conception. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate. By His impersonal feature He is all-pervading. By His localized aspect He is living everywhere, omnipresent, within the heart of all living entities, within the atom even. And by His personal feature He is worshiped by the devotee. Wherever the devotee is there, He is present personally. Tatra drstami dhanatah yatra nayanti mad-bhaktah (?). That is His omnipresent, although He is in Goloka Vrndavana. So nobody can calculate how many miles away that planet is, still, when a devotee like Prahlada is in danger, He is immediately present there. That is the meaning of omnipresence. Not that because He is millions and trillions of miles away He cannot give protection to His devotee millions and trillions of miles away from His abode. That is the meaning of omnipresent.
Hayagriva: Yes. He also believed that God is present in all objects yet remains distinct and transcendental to all created things.
Prabhupada: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, mat-sthani sarva-bhutani naham tesu avasthitah: "Everything is resting in Me, but I am not present there."
Hayagriva: As for the individual souls, some are unembodied and some are embodied. He believes that some are celestial--they are heavenly--and these souls do not suffer, and some, the ones on earth, suffer. In either case, they are all individuals.
Prabhupada: That's right. There are souls, innumerable souls. Anantaya kalpate. Nobody can count how many souls are there. So all the souls are as described above. They have got the same qualities of the One, in minute quantity, but some of them are fallen. Just like in the fire there are so many sparks, but one or two may fall down from the fire. Others remains in the fire. Those who are not falling down, they are called nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. They are never conditioned. And those who have fallen within this material world for sense gratification, they are baddha. They are called nitya-baddha, eternally conditioned. And eternally means that nobody can estimate how long one conditioned soul within this material world is existing here, because the creation is going on perpetually--sometimes manifest, sometimes nonmanifest. But the conditioned soul without Krsna consciousness is continuing to exist in this material world. Before the creation he was there in dormant condition. Again with the manifestation he comes out. This is going on. They are conditioned. And for their deliverance that One, Supreme Personality, comes, descends, sends His incarnation, sends His devotee to call him back to home, back to Godhead. That is also going on. Those who are fortunate, they take to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead, and those who are unfortunate do not take advantage of the instruction personally given by God, and later on His devotees are engaged to preach, they do not take care; they remain conditioned within this material world. And material world is created and annihilated, and he suffers this annihilation while in this body, while in this material world. But the intelligent living entity, if he is fortunate, he takes to Krsna consciousness and again he goes back to home, back to Godhead.
Hayagriva: He believed that the soul is eternal and incorporeal in men, animals, and even in plants, and in this he differed from other philosophers of the time.
Prabhupada: What... In which way differs? Because he accepts...
Hayagriva: Accepted in..., the soul living in animals and also in plants.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the fact. He is right. That is Vedic conclusion. Sarva-yonisu, all different forms of life, there is soul, part and parcel of God. How some foolish person can think of animal has no soul? What is the reason? There is no very strong argument. The animals may be less intelligent. A child may be less intelligent than the father; that does not mean there is no soul. This gross and doggish mentality, animal mentality, is killing the human civilization. Now they have degraded so much that they think that the embryo has no soul. In this way man is being put into darker and darkest region of ignorance. Everyone has soul. That is real. We get it from Krsna: sarva-yonisu. In different forms of life the soul is there, undoubtedly. That is real conception of soul. Evolution means he is evolving from one lower grade of body to another, higher grade of body, and in this way by evolution he comes to the human form of life. And in this human form of life he can understand the teachings of Bhagavad-gita, that if he likes, he can surrender to the Supreme Lord and go back to home, back to Godhead, and if he does not, then he remains in this material world, undergoing the tribulations of the repetition of birth, death, old age, and disease. Corporal body.
Hayagriva: Plotinus saw the individual souls returning to God or the One through three stages. The first stage is that of asceticism, detaching oneself from the material world. The second stage, one detaches oneself from the process of reasoning itself. That would be mental speculation. And in the third stage the intellect transcends itself into the realm of the unknown, the realm of the One, and he speaks of this as an ecstasy, an involvement, or a transcendence of the ego. So these are the three stages of God realization that he sets down.
Prabhupada: That means, what he called three stages, karmi, jnani, yogi. That karmis, they are trying to improve their condition by this material science and material advancement of education, and some of them are trying to go the heavenly planets by pious activities. These are karmis. And higher than the karmis are the jnanis. They are speculating on the Absolute Truth by their education and coming to the conclusion that God is impersonal; when we merge into that impersonal feature, that is our liberation. And the yogis, they are trying to get some mystic power by practicing mystic yoga system--wonderful power, asta-siddhi, eight kinds of perfection: to become lighter than the lightest, to become smaller than the smallest, to become bigger than the biggest. Whatever they like, they can get. They can subdue anyone, bring under his control with that yogic (indistinct). But real yoga means to see the Supreme within the core of the heart. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah. In this way there are different processes. They are called karma, jnana and yoga. But they require endeavor to elevate, strenuous endeavor, all these practices. But the, the supreme process is simply to surrender unto the Supreme One, and He gives out intelligence how to be free from this material entanglement, and that is called bhakti-yoga. It is very pleasing to execute, and without any, much endeavor. Simply being fully surrendered to the Supreme Lord, he immediately becomes purified from all material contamination, and little practice of bhakti-yoga makes him completely fit for going back to home, back to Godhead.
Hayagriva: Concerning evil, Plotinus feels that matter is evil in the sense that it imprisons the soul, but the visible cosmos...
Prabhupada: This is our conception. This Plotinus is all, all our, practically ninety percent our conception. This is the...
Hayagriva: But the visible cosmos is beautiful, and the evil does not arise from the creator.
Prabhupada: Yes. That the individual soul, being attracted by this illusory energy, he comes here for sense gratification. It is not by the desire of the Supreme One. By his personal desire. So God gives him freedom. So he begins the life from a very exalted position in this material world--sometimes like Brahma. But on account of material activities he becomes entangled, so much so that degradation from the exalted position like Lord Brahma, he comes to become a worm in the stool. Therefore we find so many species of life. The degradation and elevation is going on--sometimes elevated, sometimes degraded--and in this way they will..., individual soul is suffering. That is his suffering, material miserable condition. When he comes to understand that "This kind of degradation and elevation going on perpetually, this is my suffering," then at that time he becomes fortunate. Then he seeks after the Supreme One, Krsna, and by the grace of Krsna he gets bona fide spiritual master. So by the mercy of both the spiritual master and Krsna, he gets the chance of being engaged in devotional service, and little effort and sincerity makes him perfect, and he goes back to home back to Godhead.
Hayagriva: Although most of his philosophy is impersonal--his conception of God is mainly impersonal--he writes, "Let us flee then to the beloved fatherland. Here is sound council. But what is this flight? How are we to gain the open sea? The fatherland for us is there whence we have come. There is the father." So he does some..., have some conception, it seems, of God as father.
Prabhupada: He, he is confused because he is also speculating. So these things will remain confused, whether the Absolute Truth is person, imperson. Generally, without spiritual advancement nobody can understand about the Absolute Truth, and so he, that doubt continues. But when there is question of love between the Absolute and the relative, there must be the personal conception, and actually He is person, Krsna. So by the mercy of Krsna, when he gets in touch with the devotee, his impersonal conception of the Absolute is removed, and then he worships the personal aspect of the Absolute Truth, Krsna, and devotee. Then his life is successful.
Hayagriva: Concerning the fall of the soul, Plotinus believes that the human soul never entirely leaves the spiritual realm.
Prabhupada: Because he is constitutionally spiritual being, he is not any product of this material world. He is part and parcel of the Supreme One. But he is embodied by the material elements, and the material elements requires change. It becomes old. Just like our shoes, our dress, it becomes old. I can have one shirt and coat, but as soon as I change the body, the shirt and coat is no more fitting the body, so I have to change. So material life means to change. It is called jagat. Jagat means changing. But we are eternal, the same spirit soul. That this material life is not very happy, because it will change. Even if we are in the very comfortable condition of life or in miserable condition of life, it will change to better or lower grade of life. That is going on. So in order to save ourselves from the repetition of changing body, if we want to remain in our original, eternal, spiritual form, we must take to Krsna consciousness, and then we are relieved from this rotten business of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease.
Hayagriva: He says, "If the souls remain in the intelligible or spiritual realm with the Soul, or Supersoul, they are beyond harm and share in the soul's governance. They are like kings who live with the high King and govern with Him and like Him do not come down from the palace. But if they wish to be independent, if they are tired, you may say, of living with someone else..."
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, excuse me. The sannyasi...
Hayagriva: So when the individual soul decides to withdraw, he becomes fragmented, isolated and weak, when he decides to withdraw from the, what he calls the palace of the King.
Prabhupada: Withdraw, withdraw from the material world?
Hayagriva: When he decides to withdraw from the spiritual realm, from the governance of the high King.
Prabhupada: Spiritual wrong?
Hayagriva: Spiritual realm, the spiritual kingdom.
Prabhupada: Kingdom. Yes. That is his falldown. When he decides to give up the spiritual life, he falls down in the material life, and that is the beginning of his material tribulations. And so long he will maintain a tinge of material happiness, the nature's life, that he has to accept, a type of material body, and there are varieties. So in all condition the spirit soul remains the part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but according to the different body he gets different circumstances. A dog is thinking, on account of the dog's body, that he is a dog. A man is thinking that he is a man on account of the human body. The same thing--an American is thinking, because the body has been gotten from America, he is thinking "American." That similarly an Indian, a Hindu, Muslim, Christian, all these designations, due to the body. So when he understands that "I am not this body," this is spiritual education. That "I am different, I am part and parcel of God," then he becomes liberated, impersonally. And when he makes further advancement, and he comes to the platform of understanding the Supreme Truth as the Supreme Person, Krsna, and he engages himself in Krsna's service, that is his actual life. Krsna, in the spiritual world, in the Vaikuntha planets, in the Goloka Vrndavana planets, so they can be promoted to any one of them--in the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka Vrndavana planet. Then he is happy as associate of Krsna. He can enjoy life eternally.
Hayagriva: Plotinus conceives of the soul as having basically two parts: a lower part, directed toward the body, and a higher part, directed toward the spiritual.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is, he is prone to fall down because he is very minute quantity, he is small, so there is tendency of falldown. The same example: the small spark of the fire, because it is very small, sometimes it falls down from the fire. So we become, being very small, minute particle of God, we become entangled by this material, external energy. Just like the example: a less intelligent person, in ignorance, commits criminal activities and he goes to jail. He is not supposed to go to the jail, but on account of his little intelligence or ignorance, he commits something which is criminal. This criminality is done by less intelligent class of men. Similarly, persons who are coming into this material world, they are less intelligent. Krsna bhuliya jiva bhoga vancha kare. They think that they will be able to enjoy life independently, without Krsna. This is less intelligence. Just like a very rich man's son, if he thinks that "If I live independently, without being dependent on father," that is his foolishness. How he can become happy independently, living aside from the father? The supreme father is all-opulent, full of everything, and I am minute only. So if I live under the care of the father, naturally I will live very comfortably, like rich man's son. But if I prefer that I shall live independently, that is my foolishness. So only the fools and rascals they try to remain independent of Krsna, and they suffer. That is the consequence. And those who are intelligent, even in the, this material life, by association of devotee and spiritual opportunities, when he comes to this understanding, that "I am son of Krsna. He claims, aham bija-pradah pita, 'I am the father,' so I am the son of Krsna, and why I am rotting in this way? Let me go back to my father," that is back to home, back to Godhead--that is intelligence. But so long a living entity remains fools and rascal he suffers in this material world. And as soon as he is intelligent enough... That is described in the Caitanya-caritamrta, krsna ye bhaje seva (indistinct): anyone who is in Krsna consciousness, he is the first-class intelligent man. Without being first-class intelligent man, nobody can come to Krsna consciousness. So this training, Krsna consciousness, means those who are fortunate, they have come to accept Krsna consciousness. This movement is training them how to know perfectly well that he is..., he will be or he is always very, very happy in Krsna, not without Krsna. That is Krsna consciousness movement. When practically we see anyone who has given up this Krsna consciousness movement, they are not happy. I don't find anyone. That's fact. They are not happy. They are rotting in degradation. That is their misfortune, less intelligent.
Hayagriva: He believes that the cosmic order awards and punishes everyone according to merit, according to one's merit. So this is a form of belief in karma also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like we are discussing Ajamila's, this Ajamila is going to be punished. The Yamaraja is there, the officer is there. He has sent his men to arrest. So just like it is the father's duty if the son goes astray, in wrong way, the father is always affectionate. He tries to bring him back again home by, either by punishing or some way or some means. That is father's duty. So this is going on. Those who are in this material world, they are simply suffering on account of foolishness. So they are punished. This punishment means to correct him, to correct him to the proper position, and this is going on. So without being corrected, if one is intelligent enough, he surrenders to Krsna and revives his old constitutional position, and that is the platform of spiritual life of bliss and knowledge.
Hayagriva: He uses this following metaphor. He says, "We are like a chorus grouped about a conductor who allow their attention to be distracted by the audience. If, however, they"--that is we, the individual souls--"were to turn toward their conductor, they would sing as they should and would really be with him. We are always around the One. If we were not, we would dissolve and cease to exist. Yet our gaze does not remain fixed upon the One. When we look at it, we then attain the end of our desires and find rest. Then it is that all discord passes. We dance an inspired dance around it. In this dance the soul looks upon the source of life, the source of the intelligence, the root of being, the cause of the good, the root of the soul. All these entities emanate from the One without any lessening, for it is not a material mass."
Prabhupada: Yes. There is good sense, that God is individual and the soul is individual. As he has given the metaphor or analogy that the con..., parties of a concert party...
Devotee: Conductor and a chorus.
Prabhupada: ...they are singing in the tune, sometimes attention diverted by the audience, it becomes out of the tune. Similarly we, when we divert our attention to the illusory energy, then we fall down, and although we remain the same part and parcel of the Lord, but the influence of the material energy covers us, and we identify with the covering elements, and life after life bodies changing, and we are identify with the covering, and this is our miserable condition of material existence. And therefore first education is that "I am not this covering." That is spiritual education. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita instruction, that "You are not this body. Arjuna, you are not this body. Why you are taking this bodily concepts of life, your relatives, your family, so seriously? It is all foolishness. It is accidental. You are born in this family, and you have got so-called relatives. You are actually spirit. So now you are identifying with this bodily concept of life, you are member of the Kuru family. Then as soon as this change of body takes place, you will again enter into the dog's family or cat's family or demigod's family. Again you identify, 'I am dog,' 'I am cat,' 'I am demigod.' " So this is the, our ignorance. We have to stop this mentality of bodily concept of life, identify ourself as a spirit soul, part and parcel of the Supreme Spirit, and act according to His direction. Anukulyena krsnanu-silanam. What Krsna says, if we act, then gradually, sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam, we become immediately free from all upadhi, designation, and gradually develop our Krsna consciousness. That is the instruction of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and the Krsna consciousness movement is trying to spread this knowledge all over the world.
Hayagriva: Plotinus accounts for the fall of the soul in this way. He says, "How is it that souls forget the divinity that begot them? This evil that has befallen them has its source in self-will, in being born, in becoming different and desiring to be independent."
Prabhupada: Yes, that I have already explained, that...
Hayagriva: "Once having tasted the pleasures of independence, they use their freedom to go any direction that leads away from their origin, and when they have gone a great distance, they even forget that they came from it."
Prabhupada: That's a fact. More and more degraded. That I have already explained. He begins his life as Lord Brahma and goes down as the worm in the stool. That is his degradation. And again, by nature's way, by evolution, he comes to the human form of life. That is a chance to understand that how he has fallen. And if he takes to Krsna consciousness, then from this life he goes again back to Krsna. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti. If he fully becomes trained up in Krsna consciousness... And everyone has to give up this body, so a devotee will give up this body, but he is not going to accept any more material body. Immediately transferred to the spiritual world. Mam eti: "He comes to Me." That is the advantage. They sometimes, foolish persons, say that "You are also going to die." Yes, you are going to die, I am also going to die, it's a fact, but a devotee's death means giving up this body and remain in his original, spiritual body. Sometimes it is said, jivo va maro va. A devotee, either he is living or he is dead, his business is the same. And those on the lowest platform of material life, just like the butcher, that he is advised, ma jiva ma maro, "Don't live; don't die." Because he is living very abominable life, daily cutting the throats of so many animals. Is that very nice life? So it is abominable, and as soon as he dies, he is going to suffer. So his position is, "Either you live or you die, his position is very, er, horrible." And a devotee, either he lives or dies, his business is the same--to serve Krsna. So jivo va maro va. He is not different from Krsna, so living or dead, it hasn't even no meaning for him. Therefore he is called liberated, jivan-muktah. Jivan-muktah means although he is in body, in this body, material body, he is liberated. Jivan mukta sa ucyate. Iha yasya harer dasye karmana manasa vacah. That is Rupa Goswami's definition. A person who is cent percent engaged in the service of Krsna, karmana, by action, by mind, karmana manasa, by words, he is not to be considered that possessing any more a material body. Jivan-muktah sa ucyate. He is already liberated, on the spiritual platform, although apparently he moves like material body. Jivan-muktah sa ucyate. And in Bhagavad-gita also it is confirmed, brahma-bhuyaya kalpate, sa gunan samatitya: he is not under the condition of the modes of material nature. He is already in the Brahman platform, brahma-bhuyaya kalpate.
Therefore the Krsna consciousness movement is so nice. Anyone who takes it seriously, he becomes immediately liberated, because liberation means to be engaged in Krsna's service. This is liberation. We are engaged in maya's service. That is our bondage. But service we have to render. We are servant--either maya's servant or Krsna's servant. Servant is our constitutional position. Jivera svarupa haya nitya krsna dasa, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says. Our real identity is eternal servant of Krsna. So even if he is..., are in this material body, if you are engaged in Krsna's service, that is liberation. Hitva anyatha rupam sva-rupena vyavasthitih. When we give up our otherwise life... "Otherwise life" means to be engaged in maya's service--as the head of the family, head of the community, head or member of this and... We have designated in so many ways. So that is our conditional life. And the same service, when we render to Krsna cent percent, we are liberated. Sva-rupena vyavasthitih. That is mukti. Mukti, they, by impersonalism, account of poor fund of knowledge, they think mukti means no more activity. Why no more activity? Because the soul is active, and the active soul is within the body; therefore we find these bodily activities. The body itself is not active; the soul is active. So when he gives up this bodily concept of life, how his activities will be stopped? But this poor fund of knowledge, Mayavada, they cannot understand. The active principle is the soul. So, so long the active principle is within the body, the body is active, and the active principle gone, the body is lump of matter. So even one is liberated from this lump of matter, he must remain active. That is explained in the Bhakti-sastra, that when he is no more in bodily concept of life, then he remains active, but activity hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate. When his senses are completely engaged in the service of Hrsikesa--Hrsikesa is another name of Krsna--that is called bhakti. Bhakti means the activities of liberated life. One may understand or not understand; if he is actually engaged in Krsna's service, under the direction of spiritual master, he is liberated. But if he voluntarily accepts again maya's service, then he is become conditioned. This is the secret. Is that...?
Hayagriva: That's the conclusion of Plotinus.
Prabhupada: That's all. (end)
Philosophy Discussions ORIGEN.HAY
Origen
Hayagriva: This is Origen, who lived from 185-254 A.D., and he studied at Alexandria, Egypt, during the same time as Plotinus. In fact he knew Plotinus, but Origen was a Christian and is considered the founder of Christian philosophy. He believed that ultimate reality, which is spiritual, consists of the Supreme Infinite Person, God, as well as individual personalities. Ultimate reality is the interrelationships of persons with each other and with the Infinite Person, God. So he differed from Plotinus in the belief that God has personality.
Prabhupada: Yes. God is personal. He is also believing personality. "Father," he says, Plotinus, but his ideas are not very clear. Did he not, Plotinus, say "the fatherland"?
Hayagriva: He mentioned the father, but that...
Prabhupada: The father is person. Anyway, we shall discuss this tomorrow.
Hayagriva: The...
Prabhupada: What is this philosopher?
Hayagriva: Origen.
Prabhupada: Origen. All right. We shall discuss tomorrow.
Hayagriva: You want to discuss tomorrow? (break) I'm just touching the main points in these, but since we're not interested in comparative theology, I'm just touching the main philosophical differences in these early Christian theologian philosophers. Origen believed that the ultimate reality, which is spiritual, consists of the Supreme Infinite Person, God, as well as individual personalities. Ultimate reality is the interrelationships of persons with each other and with the Infinite Person, God. So here he differs from the Greeks, who were basically impersonal.
Prabhupada: Our Vedic conception is almost the same, that the individual souls, or living entities, innumerable, and each one of them has an intimate relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the material condition of life the living entity has forgotten his relationship, and when, by the process of devotional service, he comes to his liberated position, at that time he revives his old relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Hayagriva: Origen ascribed to the doctrine of the Trinity. In the Trinity, God the father is Supreme, God the son, who's called the logos, L-O-G-O-S, which is Greek for word, is subordinate to the father, and he brings the material world into existence.
Prabhupada: Who?
Hayagriva: The son. God the son brings the material world into existence. God the father is not the direct creator; it is the son who is the direct creator. The Ho... The third aspect of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit, and he is in turn subordinate to the, to the son. So these Holy Spirits, they liken unto the...
Prabhupada: Holy Spirit, he is the son?
Hayagriva: There's the father.
Prabhupada: Father.
Hayagriva: There's the son, who is the direct creator of the material, like Brahma.
Prabhupada: The son, the son.
Hayagriva: Like Brahma, the perfect son. And then there's the Holy Spirit, that is all-pervasive. And all three of these aspects are divine and co-eternal. They exist..., they've always existed within the Trinity of God. They've always existed simultaneously.
Prabhupada: So our conception is--"our" means Vedic conception--that Krsna is the original Personality of Godhead, as it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, aham sarvasya prabhavah: "I am the origin of everyone." Either you call the son or the Holy Ghost, it doesn't matter, but the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the origin. Then, He has got expansion. That expansion is not actually His son... Or there are two kinds of expansion: His personal expansions and His expansion as part and parcel. His personal expansion is called Visnu-tattva, and the part and parcel expansion is called jiva-tattva--in Sanskrit technical words, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. The personal expansion there are also many varieties--purusa-avatara, saktyavesa-avatara, manvantara-avatara, many varieties. So generally, His personal expansion for creation of this material world are three also, accepted as Brahma, Visnu, Mahesvara. Visnu is personal expansion, and Brahma is expansion of the living entity, or the vibhinnamsa. And another expansion, via-media between the personal expansion and expansion of jiva, the via-media expansion is called Siva. So the material creation is done by personal expansion primarily--the whole material ingredients, and then with the ingredients the guna-avatara, Brahma, he creates particularly. And Lord Siva, when the time is right, he annihilates. So this creation, material creation, is created, maintained for some times, and again dissolved or annihilated. Bhutva bhutva praliyate. This is the nature of the external potency. There are others, detailed information, described in the Caitanya-caritamrta, but the jivas, or the living entities, they are considered as the sons, and they have got two positions: one liberated position, one conditioned position. Those who are liberated, they are personally associating with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and those who are fallen in this material world, they have, almost all of them, have forgotten, and suffering within this material world in different forms of material body. But they can be delivered from this material conditioned life to liberated position by Krsna consciousness understanding, which means that there are sastras, Vedic knowledge, and the guru which..., who is fully cognizant of Vedic knowledge and preaches and delivers the conditioned soul on behalf of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the Vedic conception.
Hayagriva: Origen believed that it is through divine grace and man's free will working together that the individual soul attains perfection, and perfection consists of attaining a personal relationship with the Infinite Person.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is called Bhakti-marga. The Absolute Truth is manifested in three features: Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan. Bhagavan is the personal feature, and Paramatma feature may be compared with the Holy Ghost when situated in everyone's heart. And Brahman feature, everywhere. By His energy He is present everywhere. So the perfection, highest perfection of spiritual life, is to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the person, personal feature of the Lord, and engages himself, the living entity engages himself in His service. Then he is situated in his original, constitutional position, and he is eternally happy and blissful.
Hayagriva: Just as man's free will brought about his fall, man's free will can also bring about his salvation. By becoming detached from matter, man can return to God, but this detachment from matter is brought about by the assistance of the Christ.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is our conception also, that the fallen soul is rotating within this material world, within this universe, up and down in different forms of life, and in his developed condition of understanding he is enlightened by God as it is instructed in the Bhagavad-gita, and the spiritual master gives him full enlightenment. Then what he says, the perfection?
Hayagriva: His detachment from matter...
Prabhupada: Yes. When he understands his pleasing, as situation with God, param drstva nivartate... When he understands the transcendental pleasing situation of his life, he automatically gives up this material bodily attachment. That is his freedom. And when he actually, in his spiritual identity, engaged in the service of the Lord, that is his normal position. (break)
Hayagriva: This is the continuation of Origen. Origen believed that all the elements that are found in the material body are also found in the spiritual body, which he called the interior man. He says, "God created man not taking the dust of the earth like the second time, but He created him after the image of God," that is initially, "this being after the likeness of God was immaterial, superior to any corporeal hypothesis. There are thus two men in each one of us, as every exterior man has for homonym the interior man. So it is for all His members, and one can say that every member of the exterior man can be found under this name in the interior man." So that for every corresponding sense that we have in the exterior body, there's a corresponding sense in the interior or the spiritual body which exists within.
Prabhupada: The spirit soul is within this material body, but the spirit soul has no material body originally. There is a spiritual body of the spirit soul eternally existing, and the material body is simply coating of the spiritual body. This material body is considered as coating, shirt-coat. It is cut according to the bodily shape. Just ordinarily we can see the tailor makes the shirt and coat according to the shape of the body. Similarly, these material elements, earth, water, fire, etc., mixed together, becomes like a clay, and it is coated over the spiritual body. The spiritual body has no connection with the material body. So because the spiritual body has got shape, the material body also takes a shape. That is understanding. But material body has nothing to do with the spiritual body. It is simply external coating, or it is a kind of contamination for suffering of the spirit soul. As soon as he is coated with this material contamination, he identifies himself with the coating and he forgets his real, spiritual body. That is called maya, ignorance, and this ignorance continues so long he is not fully Krsna conscious. When one becomes fully Krsna conscious, then he understands that this material body is the external coating; he is different from this material body. That condition, that uncontaminated understanding, is called brahma-bhutah. The spirit soul is Brahman. He was under the illusion of bodily concept of life--that is called jiva-bhutah--and when he understands that he is not this body, he is the spirit soul within the body, that is called brahma-bhutah. So when one comes to this understanding of his spiritual identity, he becomes joyful, brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati, he has no more any hankering or lamentation. In that position he sees all other living entities as spirit soul. He does not see the outward covering. Even in a dog he sees the spirit soul covered by the body of a dog, and similarly a learned brahmana, he also sees the spirit soul covered by the material body designated as learned brahmana. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita this conception is summarized,
vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panditah sama-darsinah
So up to the animal bodily concept of life, one is unable to understand his spiritual identity. But in the civilized form of life, when the society is divided into eight divisions, varna and asrama--four varnas and four asramas--brahman, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, four varnas, brahmacari, and grhastha, vanaprastha, and sannyasi... So a brahmana from the social status, when he becomes elevated to the position of a sannyasi, that is the highest perfectional stage in this material world, and at that stage only he can realize his original constitutional position and he acts accordingly, and thus he becomes delivered, which is called mukti. Mukti means to understand his own constitutional position and act accordingly, and conditional life means to identify with the body and act accordingly. So in the mukti state the activities are different from the conditional state. Therefore the devotional service is the activity of the liberated stage. So anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he maintains his spiritual identity, and therefore he is called liberated even though in this conditional material body.
Hayagriva: Origen believed that the interior man, or the spiritual body, also has spiritual senses which enable the soul to taste, see, touch and contemplate the things of God.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is devotional life.
Hayagriva: During his lifetime Origen was a great teacher and was very much in demand. For him, preaching simply meant explaining the words of God and no more. He believed that first of all a preacher must be a man of prayer and must be in contact with God, and that he should pray for a better understanding of the scriptures.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is real preacher. That is explained in the Vedic literature, sravanam kirtanam. First of all he becomes perfect by hearing. This is called sravanam. And when he is perfectly situated in spiritual life by hearing perfectly from the perfectly authorized person, then his next stage begins, kirtanam. That is preaching. That sravanam kirtanam, everyone is hearing in this material world. Everyone is hearing. Even this material educationist, he also hears from the material person, professor. That hearing is there. Then he acts when he is grown-up, passed his examination, sometimes acts as professor. The same process: if one hears from the perfect spiritualized person, he becomes perfect, then he becomes actual preacher. Preaching, sravanam kirtanam, about Visnu, not for any other person within this material world. The Supreme Person, transcendental Personality of Godhead, to hear about Him and to preach about Him, that is the duty of a liberated soul.
Hayagriva: As far as seeming contradictions and seeming absurdities in scripture are concerned, Origen considered these as stumbling blocks allowed by God to exist in order for man to go beyond the literal meaning. He says, "In some cases no useful meaning attaches to the obvious interpretation, but everything in scripture has a spiritual meaning, but not all of it has a literal meaning."
Prabhupada: Literal... Generally, every word in the scripture there is literal meaning, but one who cannot understand properly because one does not hear from the proper person, he makes some interpretation. But there is no need of interpretation in the words of God. It may be that the words of God sometimes cannot be understood by ordinary person; therefore he requires to understand through the via-media of transparent guru. Guru is fully cognizant of the words spoken by God. One has to accept, therefore, a guru to go through the scripture properly. Generally there is no ambiguity in the words of God, but due to our lack of perfect knowledge we sometimes cannot understand and try to interpret. But this is, this interpretation is not at all feasible, because imperfect person interpreting means whatever he interprets, that is imperfect. So the proper import of the words of scripture or words of God should be understood from a person who has realized God.
Hayagriva: For Origen there are two rebirths. One is a baptism, which is something like an initiation, and then there is a complete purification, a rebirth in the spiritual world with Christ. So baptism is compared to a shadow of the ultimate rebirth, and when the soul is reborn with Christ, it receives a spiritual body like Christ and beholds Christ face to face.
Prabhupada: Christ behold?
Hayagriva: The individual soul can then see Christ face to face when he attains his spiritual body.
Prabhupada: What is the position of Christ?
Hayagriva: What is the position of Christ?
Prabhupada: He, does he describe anything?
Hayagriva: Well, not Origen. The position of Christ is that he is seated at the right hand of the father, that he is in the spiritual sky with the father.
Prabhupada: No, here, when Christ was present, so so many persons saw him. So what is the position?
Hayagriva: What was the position of those people? Well those who saw him were very special people, but they saw him in many different ways, just as they saw Krsna in different ways when He was on this earth. Different people saw Him differently.
Prabhupada: (aside:) This is, that, disturbing.
Hayagriva: Hm? Is this clear?
Prabhupada: No, I am talking to him. (pause) So different persons, so that is all right. According to the status of a person, he sees another person individually. That is all right. So Christ is in his full spiritual body, that is the idea?
Hayagriva: That's the idea.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. We also think like that.
Hayagriva: He didn't believe that the individual soul existed from all eternity. It was created. The...
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: The rational natures that were made in the beginning did not always exist. They came into being when they were created.
Prabhupada: That is not correct. The living entity is eternally existing, as God is eternally existing, the living entity who is the part and parcel of God. But the living entity, as we have several times..., being a small spark, sometimes the illumination is extinguished or stopped for the time being, but he is eternally existing, changing the body, na hanyate hanyamane sarire, after the destruction of the body. The material life means the body is destructed, one body after another, but the living being is eternally existing, na hanyate hanyamane sarire.
Hayagriva: He uses this metaphor. He writes, "The human body has unity because its various members are all made for specific functions in it, and it is bounded by a single soul. In the same way, it seems to me, the whole immense, gigantic world should be regarded as one being kept alive by God's power and logos, as by a single soul."
Prabhupada: But single soul is created, he says. But that single soul, his spiritual identity is never created. That is the difference between matter and spirit. Anything material, that is created. Spiritual is never created.
Hayagriva: At the same time...
Prabhupada: (aside:) You go and wash your face with water, running.
Hayagriva: At the same time Origen differed from the later Church tradition in his belief in the transmigration of the soul. Although he believed that the soul was originally created, he believed that it transmigrated, and it transmigrated because the soul, the individual soul, could always refuse to give itself to God, although he believed that ultimately the time will come when everyone will return, and God's rule will be restored to its original integrity. This differed from later Christian tradition, which said that the choice one made in this one lifetime was decisive for all eternity. Origen doesn't believe this. He believes that you can be reincarnated at the end of this lifetime if you don't attain the ultimate goal. You'd be reincarnated in some other form.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is our version of the Vedas. Unless he is liberated or goes to the kingdom of God, he is, repeats, transforms, or transmigrates from one material body to another, because material body is not eternal. You can enter one material body; the material body grows or it remains for sometime; then it becomes old, and then it is useless for any purpose; you have to give up this material body and enter again into a new material body. Then you continue or fulfill your desire in that body, again it becomes old, again you have to give up, and again you have to accept another new body. Because everything material deteriorates, and the soul, being eternal, it cannot remain in the deteriorated body to function materially; therefore transmigration of the soul is essential. As the example is given that when you have got a material shirt and coat, when it is old enough, it cannot be used, you have to throw it out and accept another new shirt and coat. The material conditional life is like that. That is called transmigration.
Hayagriva: It's interesting that Origen did not reject transmigration, neither did Christ reject transmigration.
Prabhupada: Transmi...
Hayagriva: It wasn't until later, until the next philosopher that we take up, Augustine, that the idea of...
Prabhupada: Transmigration is...
Hayagriva: Transmigration (indistinct).
Prabhupada: ...philosophical and, I mean, fact. The example is very nicely given in the Bhagavad-gita, with dress. As a person cannot continue the same dress perpetually--the dress becomes old, useless, and he has to change his dress--so the living being is eternal, but he has to accept a material body for material sense gratification. But the body cannot endure perpetually. Therefore it is very natural to understand that he has to change the body exactly like he has to change the dress.
Hayagriva: So that's the conclusion of Origen. (end)
Philosophy Discussions AUGUST.HAY
St. Augustine
Hayagriva: This is St. Augustine, or Augustine. We'll call him Augustine. Augustine, like Origen, considered the soul to be immaterial, noncorporeal. He believed that the soul did not exist prior to the birth of the individual human being. It is only at death that the soul attains its immortal nature and lives on through eternity.
Prabhupada: What is that? He sometimes says it is not eternal? What is the clear ending?
Hayagriva: The soul did not exist previous to the birth of the individual human being.
Prabhupada: Does not exist?
Hayagriva: When the individual was created, the soul was created with him. Only after this initial creation is there immortality.
Prabhupada: What does he mean? It is not very clear.
Hayagriva: It is not clear.
Prabhupada: He...
Hayagriva: The soul is created, he is saying. That means it has...
Prabhupada: If it's created, then how it is immortal?
Hayagriva: It's immortal after it's created. It's created but it doesn't die.
Prabhupada: Then what is this death?
Hayagriva: The death is simply the death of the body.
Prabhupada: Then if he accepts another body, then he has to accept transmigration.
Hayagriva: No, he doesn't. Now here's, here's the point. Augustine believed that God elected some men to everlasting happiness and others to everlasting suffering. With the fall of Adam, or the first man, man was subjected to death. For Augustine, however, death is of two types: physical death--the soul leaves the body--and soul death--the death experienced by the soul when God abandons it. The damned face not only physical death but spiritual, soul death as well.
Prabhupada: So it may..., it can be taken figuratively, that when one forgets his position, that is a kind of death also. One forgets himself. But actually soul is eternal, and what Augustine says as spiritual death, that is his forgetfulness. Just like in unconsciousness one forgets his identity, but if he is dead then he cannot revive consciousness. Similarly, it is little difficult for the bodily concept of life persons, but there are many proofs and understanding that soul is eternal. He, of course, until he gets his freedom from this material existence, he is spiritually dead. Even though he is working in this material form, because he has forgotten his real identity, that is also a kind of death. Ya nisa sarva-bhutanam tasyam jagarti samyami. This sloka explains how one is dead and how one is alive. When one is forgetful of his spiritual consciousness, God consciousness, he is supposed to be dead, and when he, one is alive to the spiritual consciousness or God consciousness, he is alive. In this sense, it is a question of two stages, awakening stage and forgetful stage, but actually a soul is eternal. He never dies, even after the annihilation of this body.
Hayagriva: But the forgetful stage is never everlasting or eternal, is it?
Prabhupada: Yes, it is not. It can be, what is called, revived, his consciousness. That is our Krsna consciousness movement. Just like a man is sleeping, almost unconscious, but if you call him again and again, and the sound enters through the ear into the heart, he becomes awakened. Similarly, by this chanting process he revives his spiritual consciousness, then he is alive in his spiritual life.
Hayagriva: So then... But Augustine would say that God would eternally abandon the damned soul, a soul damned to eternal perdition.
Prabhupada: "Eternally abandon" means for very, very long years, millions of years, he remains forgetful. So...
Hayagriva: Seemingly eternal.
Prabhupada: Ah. But actually he can be revived at any moment in good association, sadhu-sanga, by this method of hearing and chanting, sravanam. Therefore this devotional service, beginning with hearing, is very important. If he consciously hears from the self-realized soul, then he becomes awakened to his spiritual life, and keeping himself always in the devotional service, he remains spiritually alive.
Hayagriva: (aside:) That's the end of that tape. Augustine speaks of two cities in his... He wrote a famous book called The City of God, and one city is divine. In one city, love of God unites all men, and the other city, men are united by love of the world. One society loves the flesh, and the other society loves the spirit.
Prabhupada: So this figurative description is there in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. The body is considered as like city, and the soul is described as the king of the city, and he goes out from different gates. The body has got nine gates. In this way a figurative description in the..., is in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. But that city is figuratively taken as this body, and the king of the city is the soul. (break)
Hayagriva: This is the continuation of Augustine. Augustine writes, "God is not the soul of all things but the maker of all souls." So this doctrine seems to admit of the transcendence of God but not of the eminence of God, at least not as the Paramatma accompanying the individual soul.
Prabhupada: He does not accept Paramatma?
Hayagriva: It doesn't seem to be. It seems that...
Prabhupada: Then how God is all-pervading? The Paramatma conception is there in the Brahma-samhita:
eko 'py asau racayitum jagad-anda-kotim
yac-chaktir asti jagad-anda-caya yad-antah andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara...
One part of His feature, eko 'py asau. Racayitum, creation, this creation is done by one plenary portion of His person, the purusa-avatara, the Maha-Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu, Ksirodakasayi Visnu, in expanding. So, and not only one universe but millions of universes, jagad-anda-kotim. And in the Bhagavad-gita also same thing is confirmed, atha va bahunaitena kim jnatena tavarjuna, ekamsena, vistabhya aham, sthito jagat: "By My one plenary portion I expand throughout all the universes, all the living entities. Even within atom I am present." So unless God has got that omnipresence potency everywhere, then how He can be omnipresent? This is one meaning. He is everywhere present by His expansion of His one plenary portion.
Hayagriva: Augustine disagrees with Origen, who looked on the body as a prison. He says, "If the opinion of Origen and his followers where true, that matter was created, that souls might be enclosed in bodies as in penitentiaries for the punishment of sin, then the higher and lighter bodies should have been for those whose sins were slight, and the lower and heavier ones for those whose crimes were great." So...
Prabhupada: That is Vedic conception. The soul, he, as he is, he is part and parcel of God, but he is imprisoned in different types of body. Therefore Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita that "I am the seed-giving father of all different forms of life, and the mother, material nature is the mother." That is actually very logical. Through the matter different varieties of living entities are coming out. From water, from earth, from air, even from fire, ether, everywhere, sarva-gatah, life, living entities are visible. Therefore the combination of five elements--earth, water, fire, air--that is the body of the living entities. And the soul is the part and parcel of the Supreme, and the souls are impregnated within this material world by God, and they come out through the womb of the mother, nature or individual mother, whatever you say. The soul is coming out of matter but it is not matter. The living entities, part and parcel of God, assuming different types of body, either you say according to pious or impious activities, or according to his pious and impious desires. Vasanah. So the desire actually is the cause of higher and lower grades of body, but the soul is the same. Therefore those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness, they see the same soul in, in each and every body. Either in the body of a dog or in the body of a brahmana, the same soul is existing, but according to different desires and karma one gets a different types of body.
Hayagriva: Augustine believed that all men came from Adam, that is the first man or one man, and that this one man God created--this one man--and this one man is the root of all mankind. He writes, "God knew how good it would be for this community often to recall that the human race had its roots in one man, precisely to show how pleasing it is to God that men, though many, should be one."
Prabhupada: They... It is, our Vedic conception is also like that, that the mankind has come from Manu. From Manu, human being, or manusya... The Sanskrit word is manusya, "coming from Manu." So Manu is also coming from Brahma. In this way, as the conception of a first creature, Adam, similarly, a first living being is Lord Brahma. Therefore our proposition is that a living being coming from the living being. Brahma is living being, or Adam is living being. Then the living being does not come from matter. Brahma is also coming from the Supreme Lord as raja-guna avatara, incarnation of raja-guna. So all living being, they are coming from the Supreme Living Being. So Brahma is also the first creature within this universe.
Hayagriva: Augustine... Just as Augustine saw that the soul is created into a particular body, he felt that this was a gift from God, and that this was not an...
Prabhupada: Soul is coming from particular body?
Hayagriva: That the soul is created at a particular time... We went though this yesterday, I believe.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Hayagriva: The belief in the creation of the soul. The soul is created, and that the body is a gift. And he also rejects, on the basis of this, he rejects reincarnation. He writes, "Let these Platonists..." Because Plato believed in it, reincarnation. "Let these Platonists stop threatening us with reincarnation as a punishment for our souls. Reincarnation is ridiculous. There is no such thing as a return to this life for the punishment of souls. If our creation, even as mortals, is due to God..."
Prabhupada: Punishment of the soul? What is that return?
Hayagriva: He says, "There is no such thing as a return to this life for the punishment of souls." And the reason he gives, he says, "If our..."
Prabhupada: Soul is life. What does it mean, "returning to the life"?
Hayagriva: He believes there is no reincarnation as punishment. Reincarnation is envisioned as a kind of a punishment. To have to take birth again is a type of punishment, and Augustine rejects this, saying that how can the return to bodies, which are gifts of God, be punishment? He doesn't see how that this is a form of...
Prabhupada: But does he think that the body of a hog and the body of similar lower creatures eating stool and living in filthy place, is it not punishment? Does he think like that? Why one gets the body of King Indra or Lord Brahma and why one gets the body of a pig and hog, and living in filthy place and eating stool? Is it not punishment and reward?
Hayagriva: Well, he would say that, um...
Prabhupada: How he explains the body of a pig eating stool?
Hayagriva: I've been putting this off. He wouldn't agree that man could be reincarnated as an animal.
Prabhupada: Why, why he will not agree? If a body is a gift by God, then body can be a punishment also by God.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is reasonable. When he is punished, he gets the body of a pig. When he is rewarded, he gets the body of King Indra. So that is punishment and reward.
Hayagriva: What about the body of a man? Is that punishment or gift?
Prabhupada: Man, man, there are many men who are very well situated and there are many men who are suffering. So two things are there according, suffering and enjoyment, according to the body. So this has been explained in the Bhagavad-gita, matra-sparsas tu kaunteya sitosna-sukha-duhkha-dah. According to the body the heat and, what is called, cold? Heat or cold?
Hayagriva: Hm.
Prabhupada: Sita usna. That is perceived. An old man perceives very much cold, and a young child, he does not perceive--according to the body. An animal, naked body, he can walk on the street in severe cold, but a man cannot. So this body is the source of suffering and enjoying. So why not take it as punishment and reward?
Hayagriva: Well, Augustine believes that each individual man, or each individual soul within man, is not necessarily condemned to earth due to his own personal desire or sin but due to the original sin of Adam, the first man. He writes, "When the first couple," that's Adam and Eve, "were punished by the judgment of God, the whole human race, which was to become Adam's posterity through the first woman, was present in the first man." So that was the origin of sin and death. So man's sin is not personal. The reason I'm in..., conditioned in this human body is not because I personally committed a mistake...
Prabhupada: Your becoming conditioned is punishment. Why you should be conditioned?
Hayagriva: For my..., as punishment for my own desire.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: For my personal desire.
Prabhupada: Then why does he say there is not punishment?
Hayagriva: But here he says it's because not for anything I did, but because of the original man, the sin of the original man, that everyone coming from the original man is...
Prabhupada: Original man was punished. So the next man, he, why he comes to such father, unless he is punished? Sometimes father's disease is inherited by the son. Is it not punishment?
Hayagriva: Yes. So the very coming into...
Prabhupada: Body.
Hayagriva: ...the race is a punishment in itself.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He says this on the one hand, and on the other hand he says it's a gift, not a punishment.
Prabhupada: Yes, gift you can take. If you take it that it is given by God, so it is gift. "God has given me this body for punishment. It is His mercy that undergoing punishment I am becoming purified, making progress towards God." The devotees, they think like that. Although it is punishment, they take it as reward, because by undergoing the punishment he is making progress towards God-realization. In that sense it is a gift. Gift actually means something given by somebody. So when it is given by God for our correction, it can be taken as gift.
Hayagriva: Augustine believes that the physical body comes first, and then the spiritual. "What is so in a natural body arises a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. But it is not the spiritual which comes first, but the physical and then the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, earthy. The second man is from heaven, heavenly. But the body which, by the life-giving spirit will become spiritual and immortal, will under no conditions be able to die." So that man must first come as a, as man, as a mortal, physical being first, in order to attain immortality.
Prabhupada: Why man? Every living entity has a mortal body. So to enter into the mortal body, that is a kind of punishment. And then there is evolutionary process from lower grade of body to higher grade of body. That is quite reasonable, that every living entity or soul is part and parcel of God, but on account of some sinful activities or disobedience to God, as they believe Adam on account of disobedience to God they lost Paradise and came to this material world, similarly, the soul belongs to the Paradise, or heaven, or Krsna, but somehow or other he falls down within this material world, and he gets first a body like Adam. But again, on account of his further, low-grade activities, he goes down, sometimes as human being or sometimes as more than human being--the demigod--and sometimes as animal, trees, plants. In this way he goes down, degradation, or goes up by elevation. But he is always aloof from the material body, but according to his desires and activity he gets different body. This is quite reasonable and confirmed by the Vedic literature. But his actual life is when he is freed from this material contamination, getting different bodies life after life.
Hayagriva: Augustine conceived of peace in this way. He says, "Peace between a mortal man and his maker consists in ordered obedience guided by faith under God's eternal law. Peace between man and man consists in regulated fellowship. The peace of the heavenly city lies in a perfectly ordered and harmonious communion of those who find their joy in God and in one another in God." So that peace in its final sense is the calm that comes out of this order.
Prabhupada: Yes. Peace means to come in contact perfectly with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is peace. When a man is in ignorance, he thinks that he is the enjoyer of this world, but when he comes in contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supreme Controller, he understands that God is enjoyer; we are not enjoyer. We are servants to supply the needs of enjoyment of God. That is our life. Just like a servant supplies the needs of the master. The master has no need, but he enjoys the company of the servant, and the servant enjoys the company of the master, because our relationship is as master and servant. A servant getting a good, nice government job is very happy, and similarly the master is also happy getting a very faithful servant. This is the relationship. So when this relationship is disturbed, that is called existence in maya, and when this relationship is restored, that is called spiritual life. So in the spiritual consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, one understands that the Supreme Lord is the actual enjoyer; we are servant. The Supreme Lord is the actual proprietor, and we are residents. And bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram. And Supreme Lord is the Supreme well-wisher, friend of everyone. When a living being understands these three features of God's transcendental quality, he becomes happy.
Hayagriva: Augustine writes, "No man must be so committed to contemplation as in his contemplation to give no thought to his neighbor's needs, nor so absorbed in action as to dispense with the contemplation of God." So he felt that activity and meditation, neither should be exclusive, but they should complement one another. They should go together.
Prabhupada: That means devotional activities.
Hayagriva: There should be both activity and meditation, not just one exclusive.
Prabhupada: Meditation, when you are active, the meditation is already there. Unless you think of God, how you can be active in the service of God? So meditation about whom? Meditation about the Supreme Personality of Godhead or the Supersoul within the core of heart, that is real meditation, and activities more important than meditation. If I simply sit down and think of God, that is very good, but if I factually work for God as God desires, that is more important than meditation. If you love me and simply think of me, that may be taken as meditation, but if you love me, if you carry out my orders, that is more important.
Hayagriva: Augustine says...
Prabhupada: You can call this (indistinct) here. Now.
Devotee: It's ten to, ten minutes to six.
Prabhupada: So we shall finish up.
Hayagriva: We will finish, we can finish Augustine.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Hayagriva: He conceived of the spiritual world as a place where the bodies are very beautiful, are very happy, they move with, with grace. The... God is the source of every satisfaction and is the consummation of all desires. The people in the spiritual sky never cease praising God, never tire of praising Him. There is no envy, and bliss is all-pervasive. Sin has no power of temptation.
Prabhupada: Yes. When he, we remain in contact with God, the sin cannot touch. That is the explanation given in the Bhagavad-gita: daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya. According to our desires we are associating with the different qualities of material nature, and we are getting different types of body. Karanam guna-sangah asya. Nature is the agent of Krsna, God, so as we desire, Krsna gives us the facility by giving us a body which is a machine. Just like father and the son. The son insists, "Father, give me a cycle." So the affectionate father gives him a cycle. And he says, "Father, give me a motorcar." So affectionate father gives him a motorcar. So this is the relationship between the father and the son. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, that,
isvarah sarva-bhutanam
hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati
bhramayan sarva-bhutani
yantrarudhani mayaya
The father, or Krsna, is there within the core of heart of every living entity, and as he desires, the father supplies him a type of vehicle manufactured by the material nature. So this body is given by God because we desire it, but the body is manufactured by the material nature. This is very reasonable. So we are in different types of body means in different types of vehicle, sometimes as acting on the vehicle of a pig, and sometimes we are acting on the vehicle of a very important person or demigod. But we desire such thing, and God gives us such vehicle manufactured by the material nature.
Hayagriva: This, this is the last point. It's actually very crucial. For Augustine, the mind, reason and soul are one and the same, and he writes...
Prabhupada: Mind, reason?
Hayagriva: Mind, reason and the soul are all wrapped up together.
Prabhupada: Wrapped up. But there are different identities. Intelligence... Everyone has got mind, but the mind acts under intelligence. But the intelligence of different living entities are different. Similarly mind is also different. A dog's intelligence is not equal to the intelligence of the human being. A dog's mind is not equal to the human being's mind. So actually the soul, being put under different types of body using different types of intelligence, and different some mental, psychic action, thinking, feeling, willing. So according to the body, the mind and intelligence are different.
Hayagriva: Well, this..., thinking in this way Augustine writes, he says, "We do not apply 'Thou shalt not kill' to plants, because they have no sensation, or to irrational animals that fly, swim, walk or creep, because they are linked to us by no association or common bond. By the creator's wise ordinance they are meant for our use, dead or alive. It only remains for us to apply the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' to man alone, oneself and others." So...
Prabhupada: So that is imagination of Augustine. But Jesus Christ does not say such qualitative killing. He says frankly, "Thou shalt not kill." When he says that, he means, "You should not kill." But when there is absolute necessity, just like he says that "One life is food for the another life..." Does he not say it like that?
Hayagriva: He says, uh... (break) He says..., this is, this is Augustine writing. He said, "Some people try to stretch the prohibition 'Thou shalt not kill' to cover beasts and cattle and make it unlawful to kill any such animal, but then why not include plants and anything rooted in and feeding on the soil? After all, things like this, though devoid of feeling, are said to have life and therefore can die and so be killed by violent treatment."
Prabhupada: No, that is not Vedic philosophy. Vedic philosophy admits that one living entity is the food for another living entity. That is natural. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam,
ahastani sahastanam
apadani catus-padam
phalguni tatra mahatam
jivo jivasya jivanam
Those who have got hands, they eat the animals without hands, only four legs, and the four-legged animals eats the animals which cannot move--that means plants and vegetables. Similarly, the weak is the food for the strong. In this way there is natural law that one living entity is food for another living entity. But our philosophy, Krsna consciousness philosophy, is not based on this platform, that plant life is not sensitive and animal life is more sensitive or human life is more sensitive. We take all of them as life, either human being or animal or plants or fish, it doesn't matter. That is inevitable. Either you eat animal or vegetable, you eat some living entity. That is inevitable. You cannot avoid. Now it it the question of selection. That, of course, is there. But apart from this vegetarian or nonvegetarian diet, we are concerned with Krsna prasadam. Krsna, whatever..., our philosophy is whatever Krsna eats, we take the remnants of His foodstuff. So Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, "You give Me food, and prepared from patram phalam toyam, vegetation." So if by killing vegetable or plant there is any sin, that, that is Krsna's. We simply eat after His eating. This is our philosophy. We are not after vegetarian diet or nonvegetarian diet. Whatever Krsna eats, we take the remnants of food.
Hayagriva: So that's the conclusion of Augustine. (end)
Philosophy Discussions AQUINAS.HAY
Thomas Aquinas
Hayagriva: This is St. Thomas, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas Aquinas, who lived from 1225-1274. He compiled the entire body of Church philosophy called Summa Theologe, and the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas is the official philosophy of the Roman Catholic Church. He, unlike Augustine, he did not distinguish so sharply between the material world and the spiritual world, or between secular society and the city of God. He felt that the entire creation, both material and spiritual, has its origin in the Personality of Godhead. He acknowledges at the same time that the spiritual world is superior to the material world.
Prabhupada: Yes. (indistinct) Material world means temporary, and some philosophers, like the Mayavadis, they say it is false. But we Vaisnavas, we don't say it is false, but it is temporary illusion. It is reflection of the spiritual world, but there is no reality. Sometimes it is compared with the mirage in the desert. There is no water in the desert, but sometimes, by reflection of the sun, it appears that there is water. Similarly, in the material world there is no happiness, but the transcendental bliss and happiness existing in the spiritual world is reflected here, and those who are less intelligent, they are after this illusory happiness, forgetting real happiness in the spiritual life.
Hayagriva: Aquinas believed that truths, religious truths, are attained through both reason and revelation. He ascribed to Anselm's statement, "I believe in all that I may understand," and also to Abelard's, "I understand in order that I may believe," so that reason and revelation complement one another as a means to truth.
Prabhupada: Yes. Truth, through reason, that is... Of course human reason is not perfect; therefore revelation also wanted. So that truth arrived at by logic, philosophy and revelation, that is real truth. Our process is to arrive the truth through guru, spiritual master, and he is accepted as representative of the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead, and he carries the message of truth because he has seen the Absolute Truth through disciplic succession. So if we accept the bona fide spiritual master (as) representative of God and please him by submissive service, then by his mercy and pleasure we can understand God, the spiritual world, by revelation. We offer, therefore, our great respect to the spiritual master and say, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado. If you can please the spiritual master, who is carrying the message of the Lord without any speculation, then God becomes revealed. Another place it is said, sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah. When we engage our senses in the spirit of service to the Supreme Lord, then Lord becomes revealed. In another place it is said, tesam nityabhiyuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam, buddhi-yogam dadami tam. The Lord is there, but one who is engaged in loving service to the Lord, he gets direct connection with the Lord, and the instruction also, so that the devotee may be able to enter the spiritual world.
Hayagriva: Aquinas believed that God is the only single essence that consists of pure form. He felt that matter is only a potential and, in order to be real, must assume a certain shape or form. "Being in the universe have to acquire an individual form in order to actualize themselves. When matter unites with form, the form gives an object its individuality and personality." A form gives an object its individuality and personality.
Prabhupada: Yes. The mat..., matter has no form. The spirit soul has got form. Though the matter is covering the actual form of the spirit soul, the matter appears to have form. Just like the original cloth has no form, but when the tailor cuts the cloth according to the body of the person, then the shirt and coat takes a form. The matter itself has no form. When you take clay, it has no form, but if you make it like a doll, like a man or woman, then it has a form. When the change the clay, and you manufacture a fort, then the fort has form. So form and formlessness is of the matter, but in the spiritual world everything has got form. The spirit soul has got form. God has got form. This is the truth.
Hayagriva: Aquinas believed that only God and the angels have form that is not material. There is no difference between God's form and His spiritual self.
Prabhupada: Yes. As in the material world any form--man or beast or anyone--in the outward, external covering is matter, but within the matter there is the soul. The soul has form and God has form. That is real form. And the material form is simply shirting and coating over the spiritual body.
Hayagriva: Aquinas gives five arguments for God's existence. The first is that there must be a first cause, a first cause of everything. The second is similar in saying the material world cannot create itself but requires something external or spiritual to bring it into existence. And the third argument claims that because the world exists, there must be a creator capable of bringing it into existence. The fourth states that since there is relative perfection in the world, there must be absolute perfection underlying this relative perfection. And the fifth is the argument from design: because the creation has design and purpose there must be a designer and planner. So at this time they were very concerned with arguments for the existence of God, and Aquinas gave these five.
Prabhupada: Yes. We also forward these kinds of arguments. Just like we say that there is the mother and the children. The mother is the material world, and there are so many forms of children. So when the mother is existing and the children are existing, then the father must exist. Without father, how there can be children? This is your strongest argument, that these foolish philosophers contemplate without God, or "God is dead," or so many godlessness in different way, but our philosophy is strong on the fact that there must be creator of this family, mother and sons. The father must be there. What are the other arguments?
Hayagriva: Well, the first cause, as in Brahma-samhita.
Prabhupada: Yes. Sarva-karana-karanam. Yes, that is also admitted by us, that everything has got cause, and when you reach to the ultimate cause, that is God.
Hayagriva: Because we have an idea of perfection in the world, or we see relative perfection...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...there must be some absolute perfection.
Prabhupada: Yes. That the spiritual world is the absolute perfection, and the reflection of the spiritual world is this temporary material world. So whatever perfection we find in this material world, that is derived from the spiritual world. Janmady asya yatah, the Vedanta-sutra, that whatever is generated, that is the param... Whatever is generated, it is from the Absolute Truth.
Hayagriva: And the, I believe the statement that "Since in the material world we see that nothing can create itself..." It requires something different...
Prabhupada: Yes. Brain.
Hayagriva: ...to bring it into existence.
Prabhupada: Brain, yes.
Hayagriva: Not..., nonmaterial.
Prabhupada: We don't find, even the biggest mountain cannot create anything, but when the spirit soul or the human being takes a stone, he can give a form to the stone. But the mountain, although it is very big, it cannot give any particular form to the stone. It remains stone.
Hayagriva: Unlike Plato and Aristotle, Aquinas believed that God created the universe out of nothing and He...
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: He created the universe out of nothing.
Prabhupada: No. The universe is created by God. How you can say "out of nothing"? God is there. So before creation of the universe God was there, so you cannot say that the universe was created out of nothing.
Hayagriva: Well, but the material universe must have been created out of nothing, because it could not have arisen out of God's spiritual nature.
Prabhupada: No. The material nature is also inferior nature of God. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita: bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca. Apareyam, the material nature, means earth, water, fire, air, ether, and the subtle materials, mind, intelligence, ego. They are all emanation from God, so actually they are not unreal but inferior. They are, it is called, bhinna me prakrtir astadha. They are separated material energy. We can have a little idea, just like we are speaking in the microphone, and it is being recorded in the tape recorder. When the tape recorder is replayed, the sound coming from exactly like the original person's sound, but it is not in touch with the person, but it has come from the person. If somebody does not see wherefrom the sound is coming, he can conjecture that such and such person speaking, although such and such person is away from that speaking engagement. Similarly, this material world is emanation, is expansion, of energy of the Supreme Lord, but it is not that this material world has come into existence from nothing. No. It has come from the Supreme Truth, but it is inferior energy. The superior energy is the spiritual world, which is reality. This, this cannot be supported, that material world has come from nothing.
Hayagriva: Was created out of nothing.
Prabhupada: What?
Hayagriva: Didn't say... It was created by God out of nothing. In other words...
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: ...the prakrti had a beginning in time.
Prabhupada: God has created from His energy.
Hayagriva: But...
Prabhupada: His energy, you cannot say nothing. Energy exhibited.
Hayagriva: That energy is eternally existing with Him.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yes.
Hayagriva: So, that's different, that's a different viewpoint.
Prabhupada: Not viewpoint. Energy must be there. God, if He hasn't got energy, then how He is God? Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate, He has got multi-energies. So this is one of the energy exhibited. So you cannot say from nothing. God is everything.
Hayagriva: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: (indistinct) Again, like Augustine, Aquinas believed that sin and man go together due to Adam's, the first man's original sin. All men require salvation. Salvation can only be attained through God's grace. The individual living entity has to assent by his free will in order for God's grace to function.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is bhakti. Bhakti is devotional service. So you, sevonmukhe hi jihvadau, and bhakti is our eternal engagement. So salvation means when you are engaged in our eternal activities, that is called salvation, or liberation. When you are engaged in false activities, that is called maya. Muktir hitva anyatha rupam sva-rupena vyavasthitih. Muktih means to remain in one's own constitutional position. In the material world we are also engaged in different types of activities, but they are with reference to the particular body. In the spiritual world spirit, as he is, is engaged in the service of the Lord. That is liberation.
Hayagriva: Concerning law and government, Aquinas believed in the Divine Law, which consisted of the commandments of God given in the Bible. Aquinas felt that human laws also have some moral bearing, and that they also emanate indirectly from God, for he felt that all earthly powers exist by God's permission. Ideally, the Church is God's emissary on earth, and Aquinas considered it proper that the Church control earthly secular power as well. That is, he felt the secular rulers should remain subservient to the Church, and he felt that the Church could excommunicate, that means throw out, a monarch or ruler, in which case the ruler could no longer claim his throne. In other words, that the church has not only spiritual power but secular power on earth. Should have.
Prabhupada: Yes, because the world activities must be regulated to the ultimate goal, understanding of God. Human civilization is meant for understanding God. So although the Church or the brahmanas may not directly handle administrative activities, but it must be done under their supervision, or under their instruction. That is Vedic system. The brahmana is the Church, and the ksatriya, the administrator. So the administrator used to take instruction from the brahmanas, or one who can deliver a spiritual message. This is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita, that Krsna, millions of years ago, He instructed the message of Bhagavad-gita to the sun-god. Sun-god is the origin of administrators, ksatriya. So therefore the king, or the ksatriya who administrators the business of the state, if he follows the instruction of veda through the brahmana or the Church, then he is called rajarsi--king, and at the same time saintly person. Although he is king, he is following the instruction of saintly person or the Church. So in this way if the brahmanas or the Church are in order, their instruction is in order, and the administrators, ksatriya, they follow that instruction, he is in order. So the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya. Vaisya, if he follows the instruction of the ksatriya, he is in order, and sudras, they have no intelligence; therefore they follow the instruction of the three superior orders. This is the division of the society.
Hayagriva: Aquinas considered sins to be both venial, that is petty, and mortal. The venial sin can be pardoned, but the mortal sin cannot be pardoned. Consequently, the mortal sin stains the soul. Is there anything like this?
Prabhupada: Yes. The mortal, mortal sin, mortal sin?
Hayagriva: Mortal sin. A mortal sin would be a breaking of one of the direct commandments of God given in the Bible, such as "Thou shall not kill."
Prabhupada: So anyway, we also have similar passage, that krsna bhuliya jiva bhoga vancha kare. This is mortal sins, when the living entity disobeys the order of God, he is put into this material world, and that is his punishment. And he either rectifies himself by good association or he continues this transmigration one body after another and suffers this tribulations of material existence.
Hayagriva: But in any case, how can a sin, any sin, stain the soul if the soul cannot be stained in any way?
Prabhupada: He is not stained, but as spirit soul, but he can be put into sinful activity. Just like the water and the oil, if you put the oil on the water, it does not mix with the water, it remains as separate from the water, but he is carried away, this. The oil floating on the water is carried away by the water. So that means as soon as we put in material contact then, on account of our contact, we are practically under the clutches of the water, or material world. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah. As soon as the living entity puts himself in the material world, he loses his own power. He is completely under the clutches of the water. This is the exact similarity. The oil never mixes with the water, but as soon as the oil is in touch with the water, it is being carried away by the waves of the water. (break)
Hayagriva: Continuation of Aquinas. Aquinas felt that the monastic vows of poverty, celibacy and obedience gave one a direct path to God but that they are not meant for the masses of men. He conceived of life as a pilgrimage through the world of the senses, through the world of nature, and to the spiritual world of God's grace. These, when a..., when one enters a monastery he takes a vow of poverty, chastity and obedience, these three vows.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is called tapasya. According to Vedic instruction one must take to the path of tapasya. Tapasya means voluntarily self-denial, sense gratification denial. That is tapasya. Tapasa brahmacaryena. Tapasya, our austerity begins with brahmacarya, celibacy, no sex life. That is the beginning of tapasya. Tapasa brahmacaryena samena damena va, controlling the senses, controlling the mind. Then tyagena, renouncement or giving in charity, whatever you have got, for the service of the Lord, tyagena; satya-saucabhyam, by following the path of truthfulness and remaining cleansed; yamena niyamena va, by practice of mystic yoga. In this way one makes advancement towards spiritual kingdom or spiritual world. But all these can be totally performed simply by engaging oneself in devotional service. That is also stated: kecit kevalaya bhaktya vasudeva-parayanah. If one becomes devotee of Lord Vasudeva, Krsna, then simply by executing devotional service he attains the result of austerity, celibacy, and mystic yoga practice, and the result of charity, truthfulness, cleanliness--everything attains simultaneously, without separate effort. Therefore our Krsna consciousness movement is spreading devotional service. By one stroke, the candidate can attain the results of all other processes.
Hayagriva: This is a point where Catholic doctrine seems to differ. Aquinas did not believe in a soul per say, or pure soul per say, as divorced from a particular form. God did not simply create a soul. He created an angelic soul, or the soul of a demigod, a human soul, an animal soul, a plant soul, etc. He believed that simply to create a pure soul, a being, would be almost the same as creating God Himself.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: So again we see the Christian conception that God created the soul out of nothing.
Prabhupada: No. The soul is created and... Actually not created. Soul is existing along with God, just like the sparks of fire is existing with the fire. But the difference between the two fire is that the sparks may be separated from the big fire, and when it is separated, is loses its illumination. Similarly, an individual soul is already there. The master is there and the servants are there, eternally. Just like the body is there, the parts of the body are also there. We cannot say that the parts of the body is separately created. As soon as the body is there, the fingers of the body are there, the other limbs and parts of the body are all there. The soul is never created or never dead. It is explained in the Bhagavata, na jayate va mriyate va. Soul has neither creation nor death. It appears, because the soul has accepted this material body, with the end of this material body it appears that somebody is dead. But he is not dead. He simply transfers from this body to another body, and when he is liberated, then he hasn't got to accept any more material body. Then in his original, spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. So actually the soul is never created. It is always existing with God, and this is nice that if it is accepted the soul is created, then God is also Supreme Soul--the question may be raised that He is also created. So that is not the fact. God is eternal, and His part and parcels are also eternal. The only difference is that God never accepts this material body, but the individual soul, being small particle, it may be sometimes he succumbs by the material energy.
Hayagriva: So..., but the soul is eternally existing with God in some form?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Well that..., well then maybe this is saying the same thing. "By its nature the form of the soul is the form of the body. It is that form incorruptible."
Prabhupada: No. The form..., material body is imitation, is false. Real body is the spiritual body. Because the spiritual body has form, the coating of the spiritual body by matter takes a form, as I have already explained, that the shirt and coat originally has no form, but when the shirt and coat is cut by the tailor according the form of the man, it takes a form. So actually this material form is illusion. It is not form. It, it takes the form, and when it is old enough, no more use, it again comes to the original position, earth. "Dust thou art, dust thou beist." This form is made by the material nature. It is just like a machine. Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya. The soul has its own form, but he is given a machine, a particular machine, which is this body, and therefore he enjoys by wandering throughout the whole universe in different conditions of life.
Hayagriva: I think the problem with all of these is that they cannot conceive of spiritual form. When they speak of form they are thinking that there must necessarily be matter involved. Aquinas believed that the Augustinian and Platonic doctrines of the complete independence of the soul from matter or the material body denied man's substantial unity. That is, man is body and soul. He is a particular type of soul in a particular type of body.
Prabhupada: It..., it is the same argument, that when you are dressed it appears that you are not different from the dress. The coat is moving, the pants is moving, but actually it is completely different from the person who is putting on the coat and shirt.
Hayagriva: So in other words they, he, he actually had no idea of spiritual form as such.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Hayagriva: He considered that matter was necessary to give the soul form.
Prabhupada: No. He has got his original form.
Hayagriva: Original form?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Which is the form of the body.
Prabhupada: Original form, that is the form of the spirit.
Hayagriva: Of the spirit.
Prabhupada: Yes. And the form of the body takes place on account of the form of the spirit. This is very nice example. The cloth has no form, but when it is cut according to the form of the gentleman, it takes a form. Similarly, matter has no form. When it is coated on the spiritual form of the soul, it takes the form. This is very easy to understand.
Hayagriva: To get on to another point, Aquinas believed, or rather he opposed sex for any purpose other than the begetting of children, and not only should sex be used only for the begetting of children, but that when one begets children one takes the responsibility of giving them a spiritual education.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is Vedic injunction, that don't beget children unless you can give the children relief from the cycle of birth and death. One should not become father and mother. That is responsible father and mother. And without this responsibility, if a man gives birth to a child and if a woman bears the pregnancy, that is prohibited. One should not become a father, one should not become a mother unless they are competent to give freedom to the children from the cycle of birth and death.
Hayagriva: His argument, well, he says, "Marriage is natural to man, and an irregular connection outside of marriage is contrary to the good of man; therefore fornication must be sinful."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: But he goes on to argue, "The inordinate emission of semen is repugnant to the good of nature, which is the conservation of the species. Hence, after the sin of murder, whereby human nature already in actual existence is destroyed, this sort of sin seems to hold a second place whereby the generation of human nature is precluded." Well how, people today would ask, how could the argument of the generation or the, the conservation of the species still hold, since there's so many human beings, since there are almost four billion human beings on this earth, how could this argument still hold that, uh...?
Prabhupada: That, what is that argument?
Hayagriva: That sex is only to beget children, for propagation of the species, and any other use is...
Prabhupada: Sinful.
Hayagriva: ...sinful.
Prabhupada: Yes. That we recommend in our, this Krsna consciousness: no illicit sex. Illicit sex means not producing..., not for producing children but for enjoyment. That is sinful. And...
Hayagriva: Well the conservation, what he calls the conservation of the species, that doesn't enter into it.
Prabhupada: No. The soul is already explained, that it has nothing to do with the body, but he has to accept a certain type of body on account of his association with certain type of modes of nature.
Hayagriva: So this is actually a faulty argument to say that, that illicit sex is sinful because it threatens the conservation of the species.
Prabhupada: Illicit sex is sinful. Illicit sex is sinful, because it is not meant for begetting child; it is for sense gratification. Sense gratification in any form is sinful.
Hayagriva: He believed, like Plato, in an enlightened monarch ruling, but in certain cases Aquinas believed that it was not necessary for men to obey...
Hari-sauri: (aside:) It wasn't very much, just, uh... I can... Shall I cut another one?
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: ...that it was not necessary for man to obey human laws if these laws were opposed to human welfare and were...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...instruments of violence.
Prabhupada: This is very good. First of all they must know what is the welfare of the human being. Unfortunately, with advancement of so-called material education, the human society is missing the aim of life. The aim of life is declared openly in the Vedanta philosophy, athato brahma-jijnasa. This is the aim of human life. In the Bhagavata it is said, jivasya tattva-jijnasa. The life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. That is the aim of human life. The whole Vedic civilization is based on this principle. But on account of deviating from the original Vedic civilization, they have dedicated the human form of life in so many unnecessary scientific discoveries, that discovery, which will not give him any relief to the human society. The real tribulation of life is birth, death and disease and old age. So the so-called advancement of material civilization has not solved the real problem of life, and the aim of human life is to solve the real problem of human life. The real problem of life, that we are eternal, as eternal as God, but we are subjected to birth and death. So with the poor fund of knowledge in the Kali-yuga, people being very bad, or slow for self-realization, and they create their own way of life, mandah sumanda-matayo, and they are unfortunate and, and disturbed. Disturbance is always there, but they are not mindful about the real disturbances of life. Now, on the whole in this age, practically the human being has become like animal. The animal, although always in disturbed condition, cannot understand the aim of life, what is his position. So this type of civilization is very, very dangerous to the human society, that they have no aim of life.
Hayagriva: So he concludes we must obey God rather than men, in terms of laws.
Prabhupada: Yes. We can obey such man who obeys the laws of God. Otherwise they..., it is useless to obey an imperfect person. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah. To obey the imperfect person means just like a blind man following other blind man. So what benefit he will get? If one blind man is begging help from others, "Please help me in crossing the road," if another blind man comes and he says, "Yes, come on with me," so what will be the result? Both will be crushed by accident. So any, any person who does not follow the instruction of the Supreme Controller, he is a blind person. He cannot lead. As we are concerned, we therefore don't accept the so-called scientist's or philosopher's belief. They say, "We believe," "Perhaps it may be like this." These are all doubtful declaration. There is no truth in it. If there is any truth, that is also doubtful. Why should we risk our life by following such blind man who is thinking, who is believing, but he has no clear knowledge? Therefore we have decided to take lesson from the Supreme Person, Krsna, who knows everything perfectly well. Vedaham samatitani. He knows past, present and future, and what is our benefit, welfare, everything. So we should follow Krsna instead of so-called blind philosophers.
Hayagriva: Aquinas writes on beauty and contrasts the absolute beauty of God, which is beautiful in all times and all places, absolute beauty. He contrasts this with the relative beauty that we find in the world, and he says, "He is beautiful in Himself and not in relation to some limited terminus," that is God. "Hence, it is clear that the being of all things is derived from the Divine beauty. By God's own beauty He wishes to multiply it as far as possible; that is to say, by the communication of His likeness. Indeed, all things are made in order to imitate Divine beauty in some fashion."
Prabhupada: Yes. God is the reservoir of all knowledge, all beauty, all strength, all renunciation, all riches. He is the reservoir of everything; therefore He is God. So beauty, whatever we see beautiful, that is emanation from, a very minute percentage of God's beauty. (aside:) Who paid this?
Hari-sauri: Someone gave it this morning.
Hayagriva: Concerning theology and philosophy, Aquinas writes, "Just as sacred doctrine is based on the light of faith, so is philosophy founded on the natural light of reason. Hence it is impossible for items that belong to philosophy to be contrary to those that pertain to faith, but the former may be defective." That is, philosophy may be defective in comparison with, with the latter, theology, which is based on faith. "If any point among the statements of the philosophers is found contrary to faith, this is not philosophy but rather an abuse of philosophy resulting from a defect in reasoning."
Prabhupada: Yes. That we say, that every man is defective on account of his material condition of life. So philosophy coming from such defect persons cannot be any good for the human society. Philosophy coming from a person who is in contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that is perfect. That will benefit human society. And the speculative philosopher, who has no definite idea, simply basing on his belief or imagination, by following such philosophy nobody will be benefited; rather, he will be deviated from the actual philosophy of life.
Hayagriva: So he concludes that Divine revelation is absolutely necessary, because by the philosophical method very few men could arrive at the truth, and only after a long time and many errors.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's a fact. The so-called philosophers, they are imperfect, so there is no need of consulting them. Our path is that you directly contact the Supreme Person in knowledge, who has got complete knowledge--Krsna--and we take His instructions and try to follow Him.
Hayagriva: This knowledge based on revelation or scripture is called sacred doctrine or scripture. He says it, this scripture, "does not provide information about God and about creatures in equal fashion, but about God principally and about creatures as they are related to God as to a source or to an end. Hence the unity of the science is not ended." So scripture for him is the science of God.
Prabhupada: This is science of God.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: God is explaining Himself... (break)
Hayagriva: This is a continuation of Thomas Aquinas. We've been discussing sacred doctrine, which is the same as scripture. He states that the only author of sacred scripture is God Himself, within whose power is not only to adjust words to their meaning, which even man can do, but also to adjust things themselves. In reading the scripture, one should avoid two mistakes. 1) One should not think that they can be false in any way.
Prabhupada: False?
Hayagriva: That there's no falsity.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: Falsity cannot form the basis of Divine scripture, which has been handed down by the Holy Spirit. That's one mistake one can make in reading scripture. Another, he says, "No one should try to restrict scripture to one meaning to such an extent that other meanings containing some truth and quite possible in relation to the context would be excluded. In fact it belongs to the dignity of Divine scripture to contain many meanings in one text, so that in this way it may be appropriate to the various understandings of men."
Prabhupada: Meaning is one, but interpreter are different. Just like even in the Bible it is said, "God created the universe." So that is a fact, God created. So unless you interpret in a different way, how you can say that the universe is created by some chunk and this way and that way? So we accept scripture in that sense, without any change; therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is. We cannot change the words of God. That is our principle. And interpretation with motive, there are so many interpreter, and that has spoiled the God consciousness of the human society.
Hayagriva: Well this is rather strange, because Aquinas, his writings form the doctrine of the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church has always emphasized one meaning, which is interpreted by the Pope, by the head of the Church. The meaning is given by the Pope, of scripture, because...
Prabhupada: Yes. That is...
Hayagriva: But here he says that the scriptures may contain many meanings according to one's degree of realization.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not many meaning. Meaning is one, but if one is not realized, then he can make many meanings. Otherwise meaning is one. What can be any other meaning? Suppose God created this universe. This is stated in the Bible, or in the Bhagavad-gita the same thing is expressed in a different way, aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate: "From Me everything emanates." So that's a fact, that everything is coming out from God's energy, so why there should be second meaning and second interpretation unless one is godless? What is the possible second meaning?
Hayagriva: That means...
Prabhupada: God created, that's all accepted. God created. What the second meaning?
Hayagriva: Well, he would give the example of the creation of God walking through... In the Bible it's stated that God walks through Paradise in the afternoon. He would cite this...
Prabhupada: No, no, God...
Hayagriva: ...as having an interior meaning.
Prabhupada: If God can create, He can walk also, He can speak also, He can touch also, He can see also. God is a person. So where is the second meaning? What is the possible second meaning?
Hayagriva: The second meaning, as far as I could see, would be based on an impersonal interpretation.
Prabhupada: So God cannot be impersonal. If He is creator, how He can be impersonal? He must be person; otherwise there is no meaning. (break) (end)
Philosophy Discussions HOBBES.HAY
Thomas Hobbes
Hayagriva: His most famous work, Thomas Hobbes, yes, is called Leviathan, and the word Leviathan...
Prabhupada: Leviathan?
Hayagriva: Leviathan. It initially referred to a sea monster who was defeated by Yahweh in the Judaic scriptures, and the word can refer to anything large or formidable, like a great sea monster, Leviathan. So Hobbes used the word Leviathan to refer to a ruling body or monarch in a state, and he called this Leviathan a mortal God who is under the immortal God. And this Leviathan or king or monarch would rule the government above the law. Now you discussed this with Syamasundara, but Syamasundara didn't point out that Hobbes felt that the Leviathan, or ruler, need not obey the law. Now according to the Vedic conception, is the king or the monarch above the law?
Prabhupada: No. The king is also under the law. King, as we understand from Bhagavad-gita, Krsna instructed the law to Sun-god, and he followed the laws. Therefore he is, to the common man, he is the supreme. The king is supposed to be representative of God in the state. So "above the law" means because king is perfect by abiding the laws of Krsna, he cannot be subjected to any subordinate laws. But his perfection is there only when he follows Krsna's order. Therefore monarchy, the law, king's order, is final. There cannot be any... Just like king's mercy. Even one is condemned to death, but if the king's mercy is there that he should be excused, he should be free, nobody can check. So why it is? Because king is representative of Krsna. Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam. He first of all said the laws, the Bhagavad-gita, which is so important for the human civilization millions of years, at least forty millions of years it was spoken to the sun-god, and sun-god gave it to his son Manu, Manu, and his son Iksvaku inherited from Manu. This way the absolute law is coming by disciplic succession. And formerly India was governed by monarchy. They received the law of God by disciplic succession. They executed. Therefore whatever he decides, that is final. He cannot be subjected to any other law. So the king, if he is following the laws given by God, then he is above all laws, material convention.
Hayagriva: Hobbes compares man to a machine ultimately made by God, but he does not see this machine as controlled directly by God but by the Leviathan, by the, by the king, the ruler.
Prabhupada: No. God is situated in everyone's heart, and He is seeing every minute action of the soul--what he is desiring, how he is manipulating the machine. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gita: isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati. Specifically it is indicated that God is situated in the heart of the living being and He is observing what he desires. So according to his desire, God is so kind He is supplying a machine. If he wants to enjoy this material world as a human being, God gives him opportunity to become a human being, and if he wants to enjoy this material world as a dog, He gives him the body of a dog. If he wants to enjoy as a hog, He gives the body of a hog. If he wants to enjoy as demigod, He gives him the body. So this is God's mercy. So long the individual living being wants to enjoy this material world, so according to his eagerness to enjoy in that way, He gives the facility, and that facility is the particular body. This body is material. It is supplied by the material nature, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya. The machine is made by the material ingredients, upon the order of Krsna, or God, for the enjoyment of the living entity. So he sits in that machine and travels. Just like we have got a car, we can travel, similarly we get particular machine and we travel in some species of life in some planet. There are innumerable planets, and 8,000,000 species of life. So according to the contact with material nature, the living entity is desiring something, and God is so merciful that He is giving him facility. But actually, because God is friend, when he is prepared to understand from God how he will be happy, He says that "You give up all this nonsense plan. You just surrender unto Me." Then he is perfect. Otherwise if he desires, God will supply him unlimited number of machine for going here and there, up and down, within this universe. There are two process: either you go up or come down, and the down means lower species of life; up means higher species of life. Just like demigods, Brahma, his one day's life calculation is impossible to do. So there are different places of life, millions of years' living and a few moment living. So everything opportunity is given by God because He is supreme controller. We desire: Man proposes, God disposes. This is God's position. But so long he will go on proposing this and that, he will never be happy. When he agrees to the plan of God, then he will be happy.
Hayagriva: Hobbes says that warfare is perpetual and that the struggle for existence goes on and on, and therefore the Leviathan is necessary. This... He believes in the divine right of kings, that the Leviathan is like God's representative, God's lieutenant, and he has his sovereignty under God.
Prabhupada: Yes. If...
Hayagriva: Like a Vedic monarch or a...
Prabhupada: That is perfection of monarchy. God... The king is called nrpa-deva, nara-deva. Although he is in human form of body, he is God.
Hayagriva: He also said that this could be not only an individual but a group of individuals.
Prabhupada: Yes. Group of individuals can remain, provided they are all devotees. But if the group of individuals, if they are all rogues and rascals, they cannot be representative of God. But either singular or plural, if all of them or single actually representative of God abiding by the laws... Laws means actual, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam. For God said that is actual religion or law. And if we manufacture in our own ways, without reference to the God's program, it will be useless and failure.
Hayagriva: He says, "Some men have pretended for their disobedience to their sovereign a new covenant or a new agreement with God, made not with men but with God. This also is unjust, for there is no covenant or agreement with God but by mediation of somebody that represents God's person, which none does but God's lieutenant, who has this sovereignty under God." Could a monarch use this argument, which is the argument of divine right, in order to discourage his subjects' rebelling under the pretense that they are communing directly with God? What guidelines are there to assure against this? There was... Wasn't there one king, King Vena, King...?
Prabhupada: Yes. Vena. So everything depends on the king's accepting the absolute instruction of God. So king, in Vedic civilization, the king was absolutely following the regulation given by God, and it was confirmed by saintly persons, sages. Then it was executed; not whimsically. There was advisory board of the monarchy always. They were not politician, diplomat, but they were all saintly person, knew very well the Vedas, and they used to guide the monarch. Therefore the monarch is absolute governing body. The ministers were helping, but the king was educated by God's direct instruction, as Krsna said, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan. Vivasvan, the sun-god, there are tradition two ksatriya family--one from the sun-god and one from the moon-god. Surya-vamsa and candra-vamsa. The ksatriyas in India, they claim. And that is a fact, because we see that Surya, sun-god, is the original ksatriya. From him came Manu, Vaivasvata Manu. This is the age of Vaivasvata Manu, and from him came his son, Iksvaku. So by the parampara system, if we take Krsna's instruction... Krsna's instruction is already there. If the governments all over the world take Krsna's instruction, then every government will be perfect and there will be no disturbance of peace and happiness. That will be perfect world. Krsna has given instruction in all fields of activities. Simply we have to take it practically. But the people are so foolish that instead of taking the standard way of living, they are manufacturing on account of their demonic tendency. They, the head of the state, they are degraded, either individually or collectively, so how there can be good government? If they become perfect according to the instruction of God, then everything will be perfect.
Hayagriva: And Hobbes, finally, gives the, this definition of God: "A most pure, simple, invisible spirit corporeal."
Prabhupada: Corporeal?
Hayagriva: Spirit corporeal.
Prabhupada: Well why invisible?
Hayagriva: Invisible.
Prabhupada: Why? Invisible...
Hayagriva: Invisible...
Prabhupada: When Krsna says, Krsna came, He was visible, and Arjuna was talking with Him face to face. So why is unvisible? If He likes, that is His..., that depends on His good will. He becomes visible to a competent or perfect person. He is visible. Just like Arjuna was talking with God, not only visible, was talking face to face. He was asking question, and Krsna was answering. So one has to become qualified like Arjuna to..., then he will see Krsna, or God, and he will talk with Him, he will get direct instruction. There is no difficulty. So He is not visible to the imperfect person, but He is visible to the perfect person. But He is not at all invisible.
Hayagriva: Well, that's all on Hobbes. (end)
Philosophy Discussions DESCARTE.HAY
Rene Descartes
Hayagriva: This is the continuation of the notations on Descartes.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: Descartes, Rene Descartes, the French... Descartes writes, "The power of forming a good judgment and of distinguishing the true from the false, which is, properly speaking, what is called good sense or reason, is by nature equal in all men. God has given to each of us some light with which to distinguish truth from error." Now in the West this has been called conscience, and Descartes uses the term "reason." Now is this simply a form of mental speculation, or is the...
Prabhupada: No. Mental speculation should be there. It is not actually speculation but it is reasoning. Just like if we study our own body, whether I am this lump of matter, namely this skin, bone and stool, urine and muscle and blood... If we analyze this body we find practically these things. So the reasoning is that whether combination of these things can give life. So externally we have got all these things. Blood we can get from slaughterhouse, and bone we can collect, or you can manufacture and set up an instrument with these things. Will it be, bring life? So the reasoning is life is different from this lump of matter. That is reasoning. Why...
Hayagriva: But he...
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: He says reason is by nature equal in all men. Now isn't reasoning power different in different men?
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise why it is called "This man is intelligent," other man is called "You are ass." So when, on this reasoning platform, when one comes to the conclusion that the living force within the body is different from this lump of matter, then he is on the human platform. And if he keeps himself that this life means combination of these material things, then he remains an animal. This is the reasoning. Where is the life? You analyze beginning from the breathing up to the urine and stool--where you will find life? That is human reasoning. Human civilization is now advanced in analyzing things in the chemical laboratory. So if we analyze this breathing, it is air. So you replace this air, let life come again. What is this breathing? Breathing is simply exhaling and inhaling some air. So by machine, by electric, what is called, batteries, let it work and it will act accordingly, breathing. But does it mean it will bring life? So they say breathing is stopped; therefore life is stopped. So breathing can be revived, but where is the life? They say the blood has become white. So blood can be colored. So anything of this body, analyze perfectly and bring life; then you say that life is combination of this matter. You cannot bring it; therefore it must be concluded that life is different from this combination of matter. This is reasoning. This is human reasoning. And if you still keep yourself that this body is, it is everything, then you are animal. This is reasoning. That is the verdict of the Vedic..., sa eva go-kharah. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke. If one is thinking still that he is this body, he is no better than animal. There is no reasoning. Who can challenge this? Analyze every part of the body. Where is life? Hm? What do you think? Is that reasoning or not?
Hayagriva: Yes. Now the reason is one thing, but intellection is another there.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: Intellection and reason you would call the same?
Prabhupada: Intellect?
Hayagriva: Intellection and reason and the Supersoul speaking from within?
Prabhupada: The Supersoul, soul...
Hayagriva: That's something different.
Prabhupada: ...that we shall consider later. First of all come to the reasoning, that this combination of air, water and bone and muscle and urine and stool is not life. You first of all come to that, then we have to find out that what is that soul. First of all you come to this conclusion. "This is not," neti. "This is not." Then what is the positive thing, that we have to search, athato. That is brahma-jijnasa. What is that Brahman? It is not matter. Then we will come to the conclusion that Brahman is the origin of this matter, because the matter is developing on the soul. That is also reasoning. Simply sex does not create pregnancy unless there is soul. They have so many times sex, so not every time there is pregnancy. Of course, it is expected, but... Anyway, when the soul is injected in the womb of the woman, then the pregnancy means the matter develops, and that we can see outside the pregnancy also--when the child comes out it develops a body. And if this child comes out dead, there is no development. Therefore the soul is the basic principle of material development. That means a seed of a tree, so you sow it, and if the soul takes shelter of the seed, then it grows to a plant; otherwise does not grow. The same seed, if you fry it and sow it, then it will not, because unsuitable for the soul to remain in that seed. So athato brahma-jijnasa janmady asya yatah.
So the matter is coming out on the positive existence of the soul. This is to be learned. Without soul being present within the womb of the woman there is no pregnancy, there is no development of the matter. We can see the same thing, that the child is developing or changing the body because the soul is there. This is reasoning. Where is the difficulty? So the philosophy, first of all find out what is that external thing which is the living force. By analyzing this material body we don't find any symptom of life either from breathing or from blood or from (indistinct). Therefore something extra. Now you find out what is that extra. That extra you will find out if you come to the right platform--that it is soul, jivatma. And on the basis of jivatma, that is very minute. If you take authority of the Vedic sas..., very, very minute, one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair, a very small particle that we cannot find it where it is in the body. It is very small. So with your material eyes and material instruments it can not be found. We are missing. But this thing is there, we get information from the sastra. Therefore the life is going on, it is so powerful. Just like the sun is ninety-three million miles away, but it is keeping the whole universe illuminated. Similarly, although the soul is very, very small particle, it is keeping this body alive, fresh. So by material analysis you cannot find out, because it is so small you cannot see that. But it is to be accepted that because that small particle is there, this body has developed. So the conclusion is that matter comes on account of soul, not that combination of matter produces soul. Athato brahma-jijnasa. First of all the inquiry, "What is that living force?" Then the conclusion is next, that on account of this living force this material body has come. Therefore the conclusion should be that God is the supreme living force on which the cosmic manifestation has developed. That is our theory, that Garbhodakasayi Visnu is there, then the universe comes into existence, and Brahma is born and he creates so many.
Hayagriva: And this reason... He says, "I fall into error because the power which God has given me of distinguishing the true from the false is not in me an infinite power." So by reason we can never...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...be certain...
Prabhupada: Yes, infinite. I am, I am finite. I, as soul or as Brahman, am finite Brahman, and therefore there must be one infinite Brahman. That infinite Brahman is God, and finite Brahman is jiva, living entity. Therefore in the Vedic literature the God is accepted as the chief living being. Just like we have got in our family the father is supposedly chief man in the family, and sons and daughters, they are subordinate. These are common understanding. Similarly, God is the origin of all living entities and we are subordinate living entity, just like the father and the sons, and that is accepted by any religious sect, that God is the supreme father and we are son. That is accepted everywhere. And as the sons, children, they exist by the mercy of the father, similarly, our existence is continuing on account of mercy of the supreme father. This is reasoning.
Hayagriva: He says, "These perfections which I am attributing to God, which are infinite, immutable, independent, all-knowing, all-powerful..."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "...these perfections are in some fashion potentially in me...,"
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "...although they do not show themselves."
Prabhupada: But they are finite. They are finite, very small particle. That I have already explained many times, that the creative force is in me. I can create also. Now in the modern scientific knowledge, so I have created a big plane floating in the air, but I cannot create another planet with so many mountains and vast water, oceans, and trees. That I cannot do. That is done by God. This planet is also floating in the air and the tiny 747 plane is also floating in the air. So that is created by me, infinite, ah, finite. I have no other more power. Even if I float a city like plane, still I am finite. But God has created this planet or many other planets with so many things--mountains, seas and forests and cities and so many. That is the difference between... The creative power is there. Because I am part and parcel of God, I have got that creative power. So I have got also little knowledge. I know my knowledge within my atmosphere, but God knows everything. That is explained, janmady asya yatah, abhijnah, itaratas ca. Abhijnah, abhijnah means He knows everything. In the Bhagavad-gita also it is said, vedaham sarvam, "I know everything." That is the difference. When Arjuna questioned Krsna that "How it is that You remember millions of years ago, You taught Bhagavad-gita?" And that Krsna says, "Yes, that is the difference between you and Me. I remember; you forgot." So therefore in all cases God is also living being, I am also living being, but I am very, very small, finite, and He is infinite. He is also living being. (break)
Hayagriva: Continuing Descartes, he writes, "It is not an imperfection in God that He has given me the freedom of assenting or not assenting to things of which He has not placed a clear and distinct knowledge in my understanding. On the other hand, unquestionably it is an imperfection in me that I do not use this freedom right, yet..." So but one may then ask, Why doesn't God give us the understanding whereby we can choose properly in all cases?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Why can't we have free will and at the same time...
Prabhupada: Free will means...
Hayagriva: ...infallible judgment?
Prabhupada: Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will.
Hayagriva: A man may know better but still act wrongly.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: But that is free will. He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing, it is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing--he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison--everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will.
Hayagriva: In a sense he says that when one knows God he knows everything else, because...
Prabhupada: Yes. If he knows God and follows the instruction of God then he is right, and as soon as he goes against the instruction of God, then he is wrong. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: "Now I have given you all instruction. It is up to you to accept or reject." Yathecchasi tatha kuru. That is free will. So now it depends on me whether I shall act according to the instruction of God or I shall act according to my whims, according to my sensual inclinations.
Hayagriva: He says, "I see that the certainty in truth of all knowledge depends on knowledge of the true God, and that before I knew Him I could have no perfect knowledge of any other thing, and now that I know Him I have a means of acquiring a perfect knowledge of innumerable things, not only in respect of God Himself and other intelligible things, but also in respect of that corporeal nature which is the object of pure mathematics." Now he says he knows God but at the same time he seems to be deceived in matters, certain matters that we haven't come to yet, but, uh...
Prabhupada: No. If he has actually followed God's instruction and if he has actually knowledge of what is God, then he will never be misled. Either he selects a false God or he has not met God, real God. Then he is... But to save this danger there is God's instruction, Bhagavad-gita. Anyone who will follow, he will be perfect.
Hayagriva: Concerning the soul, Descartes concludes that...
Prabhupada: Now in this connection, regarding the soul, if he has received the knowledge of soul from God, therefore at that time there is no chance of he is thinking. If, as soon as he thinks in his own way, then there may be mistakes, because he is imperfect, finite. But when Krsna says directly that "Within this body the soul is there," so if we accept God's instruction, then immediately we understand that the soul is different from this body. Exactly just like if somebody inquires, "Where is Prabhupada?" If somebody says that "He is in this room," it does not mean this room is Prabhupada; Prabhupada is within this room. Similarly, Krsna says that this, the owner of the body, the soul, is within this body. So immediately the false impression that "I am this body," the fool's conclusion, immediately it is eradicated. The light is there, but he will not accept. He wants to continue to live as a fool and speculate and waste time and con..., give conclusion in so many ways, so many rascal jugglery, "The living force is like this, like that, like that." But Krsna gives instruction immediately that the living force, soul, is within this body; he is not this body. And He gives complete instruction on this at... He says, na hanyate hanyamane sarire: "This soul is never killed even the body is killed." This is knowledge. In spite of this knowledge, if somebody sticks to his foolish theories, then he remains animal.
Hayagriva: There was a lot of conjecture at this time on where the soul is located, and he writes, "It is likewise necessary to know that although the soul is joined to the whole body, there is yet in there a certain part in which it exercises its functions more particularly than in all the others, and that it is usually believed that this part is the brain or possibly the heart."
Prabhupada: The heart.
Hayagriva: "The brain because it is within..., because it is with that the organ of sense are connected, and the heart because it is apparently in it that we experience the passions." We... He thought that the soul was in the pineal gland at the base of the brain, because we think with the brain, but that he wasn't certain. He thought, "Well, our passions are in the heart, so maybe it's in the heart."
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: "Maybe it's in the brain."
Prabhupada: Therefore we have to accept God's instruction. He definitely gives the information, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati. Isvarah means the controller. So the soul is the controller of this body. So He is within the heart; it is already there. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati. There are two kinds of isvarah, controller. One is the ordinary controller, that means the individual living being, and the other is the supreme living being. We get from Vedic information both of them sitting together on this body tree. So both cases, the Supersoul and the individual soul, they are living within the heart. That is the right conclusion.
Hayagriva: But at the same time the soul pervades the entire body.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Avinasi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam tatam. That portion which is spread all over the body, that is immortal. So this is the illumination or the shining of the soul. That the sun is situated localized in a particular place, that we can see everyday, but his illumination is distributed all over the universe. Similarly, although the soul is situated within the heart, his illumination is spread all over the body. So that is consciousness. So as soon as the soul is out from the heart, which is known as heart failure, when he leaves the heart, then what is the use of this heart? It becomes a lump of matter. Immediately consciousness is absent from the whole body. So it is upon the leaving of the soul this body there is no more consciousness. This is reasoning. Why a second before there was consciousness and after there is no consciousness? If you chopped up the body there will be no protest, there will be no feeling of pain, that "What is that?" This is reasoning, that something is missing. That soul has gone out; therefore the consciousness in the body is absent. That soul is immortal; the consciousness is also immortal. Now the consciousness, by the influence of illusory energy, is engaged in so many material things--consciousness of society, consciousness of nationality, consciousness of this, that, so many. This Krsna consciousness movement is educating movement, how the consciousness can be purified to remain only Krsna conscious. Then his life is successful.
Hayagriva: All right...
Prabhupada: What?
Hayagriva: Here we go. In a letter, Descartes wrote, "I know that brutes," that is animals, "do many things better than we do, and I am not surprised at this, for that also goes to prove that they act by course of nature. If they could think as we do..."
Prabhupada: No. Not force of nature. By force of God.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: In the heart of the brute also there is God.
Hayagriva: "If they could think as we do, they would have an immortal soul as well as we, which is not likely because there is no reason for believing it of some animals without believing it of all, and there are many of them too imperfect to make it possible to believe it of them, such as oysters, sponges, etc." Is thinking a necessary function of the soul? He says, well for instance an oyster. How does he know whether or not an oyster thinks?
Prabhupada: God is there giving him. God is, gives us instruction that we will advance, human being. We refuse, but they do not refuse.
Hayagriva: You've said that anything that grows has a soul. The grass has a soul, has soul.
Prabhupada: Yes. In dormant state.
Hayagriva: Dormant.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just as child has soul, but it is not yet..., the body has not yet developed. According to the body, according to the circumstances, the soul acts.
Hayagriva: But he equates the mind and the higher mental processes with the soul.
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: And, uh...
Prabhupada: Mind is an instrument through which the soul acts. Mind is rejecting and accepting by the dictation of the soul.
Hayagriva: He looked on animals as machines that react, and the basis for this view is..., he called it radiosenation, or language, because they do not have language...
Prabhupada: They have got language.
Hayagriva: They react as machines.
Prabhupada: They have got language. You do not understand it.
Hayagriva: It's been proved scientifically...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...that they actually... Dolphins, we, we have been able to even speak to dolphins, to communicate verbally. That also...
Prabhupada: Krsna was speaking with everyone. With the birds He was speaking. One old gopi went to the Yamuna to take bath, and when she saw that Krsna was speaking with the bird, then she, "Oh, Krsna can speak with the birds." She became surprised. So because Krsna is God, He can understand everyone's language. That is God.
Hayagriva: Oh, even during his day Descartes was attacked on this...
Prabhupada: That, that, that qualification is described in the, our Science of Devotion. What is that?
Hari-sauri: Nectar of Devotion.
Prabhupada: Nectar of Devotion. Vavaduka. This qualification is called vavaduka. He can understand everyone's language. Just like a human being, if he understands many languages he is called linguist. Similarly, Krsna's another title is Vavaduka. That means he understands everyone's language, even the birds, beasts. That is vavaduka.
Hayagriva: So that's the end of Descartes. (end)
Philosophy Discussions PASCAL.HAY
Blaise Pascal
Hayagriva: This is a section, a continuation of Pascal, Blaise Pascal. P-A-S-C-A-L. Pascal saw man situated in the universe between two extremes--between the abyss of infinity and the abyss of nothingness. Man has a body like the animals and an intellect like the angels or demigods. As such, he is neither a demigod nor an animal but somewhere between the two. Due to this situation, man is intelligent enough to know that he is in a miserable situation. Nonetheless, he has a great desire to be happy and to rid himself of his misery. Pascal saw that all men complain and suffer regardless of the situation. According to him, man engages in all kinds of hobbies and games and diversions in order to divert himself from his misery. But ultimately nothing really helps. What man once possessed and now has lost is perfect happiness. Pascal believes that the emptiness felt by man can only be filled by God. Isn't..., is this the same as...
Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita.
Hayagriva: Bhagavad-gita (laughs).
Prabhupada: Mudha janmani janmani mam aprapyaiva. Because he does not get under the shelter of Krsna, so life after life he is trying to be happy and he is becoming baffled. He is manufacturing new way of sporting--sometimes diving in the water, sometimes flying in the air. So this sporting, as soon as, according to his desire, God is supplying, "All right, you want to fly, you become a bird. You want to dive in the water, all right, you become a fish, big fish." So God is giving you and trying to see whether giving up all this nonsense plan he comes to God and surrenders unto Him: "Sir, I have, I have tried all my plan; I could not become happy. Now, my Lord, you say that 'You give up all this nonsense business, you surrender unto Me, I will make you happy.' " Then he becomes happy. For this message, God comes. Because this rascal will not do according to the desire of God; therefore God comes personally and teaches him--as Lord Ramacandra, as Lord Krsna, as Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and He, They, He gives the same instruction, that "You surrender unto Me and act according to My instruction; you will be happy." But he will not do that.
Hayagriva: Whereas Descartes stressed reason, Pascal says that the principles that are understood by the heart are absolutely certain and that they are certainly adequate to overcome all skepticism or doubt in God. Is this something like the Supersoul speaking in the heart? Or how can one be certain that it is the Supersoul?
Prabhupada: Yes, he is speaking. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, that buddhi-yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: "I give him intelligence by which he can always live with Me," upayanti. He is living along with... Every living entity is living with God. But out of his ignorance, he does not know. So what for the other bird is there? What He is doing? And He is living as witness. He is friend, that "What this nonsense is doing? He will suffer." So He is finding out the opportunity how he will take instruction from the other bird, God. And He gives instruction. But to whom? When he surrenders, and he is engaged in this service, then He gives him instruction. Tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam, buddhi-yogam dadami. He gives. God is giving intelligence to everyone, but the nondevotee, he is not surrendered; he will not accept. The same example, when the thief goes to steal, God gives him that "Don't do this. You will suffer," and he knows that, that God says, He is speaking that "Don't do this," but still he does. So he suffers. But if he can purify and acts according to the instruction of God, then he is perfect. That is the difference between demon and devotee. Devotee strictly follows the order of God; he is happy. And demon, he also knows what is God's desire; he disobeys, he acts according to his whim, he suffers. So God is giving instruction. There is no doubt about it. Externally He is giving instructions through His agent, spiritual master, through books; and internally as consciousness, conscience. He is giving, always, but the rascal will not accept. Then he must suffer. What can be done?
Hayagriva: Pascal believed in the doctrine of original sin. That doctrine holds that at one time man fell from grace by committing some sin or other, and that fall from grace accounts for his present position between the demigods and the beasts. In other words, that original sin accounts for man's engagement, or encagement, in matter.
Prabhupada: Yes, this is our...
Hayagriva: What was this original sin?
Prabhupada: To disobey the order of Krsna, or not to serve Krsna. Just like some servant, he tries that "Why I am serving this master? Why not become a master." The, sometimes psychologically it comes. A man is working in the office, he is seeing the managing director is sitting and is taking all the money, and sometimes the worker... Just like a capitalist and the worker. Why it is Communist movement? That they are thinking that "We are working, and the capitalist is taking the money." So they revolt, they make strike, and they form a society that "We have the..., we must have this money." That is communism. So similarly, when the living entity--he is eternally part and parcel of God; to serve God, that is his real position--but when he thinks that "Why I shall serve God? I shall enjoy myself," that is the beginning of falldown. So what is your question? When the... This was your question, that "When the sinful life begins?"
Hayagriva: Oh, what was, what was this original sin?
Prabhupada: This is the original sin. When he thought of not to serve God but to become God, that is the original. Just like the Mayavadis, they have knowledge, they have philosophy, everything, but still trying to become God, which is impossible. Then there is no meaning of God. If simply by meditation and by some material efforts one can become God, then where is the use of God? You cannot become God. But artificially you can try to become God, and that artificial way of becoming God is the beginning of sinful life.
Hayagriva: He believed that it is impossible..., it is impossible for man to understand the universe or his position in the universe. In the material world we cannot look for certainty or stability because our reasoning powers, our reason, is always being deceived. Consequently, man must surrender to the dictates of his heart and to God.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is our position. We, we are teaching Krsna consciousness means that you act according to the instruction given by Krsna. We are not depending on heart, because a heart, the dictation is coming, but it is not appreciated by the demons, nondevotee. Therefore direct, direct instruction is the Bhagavad-gita, and it is explained by His devotee. So in this way, if we take right from God and His representative. Not that (indistinct). So therefore Krsna consciousness movement is teaching or preaching God consciousness so that people may take instruction of this Bhagavad-gita as it is and act accordingly and be happy. That is our program. We do not manufacture any ideas. The ideas are already there. Simply we are preaching. If one is intelligent, fortunate, he will take it and be happy.
Hayagriva: Of all things in the world, Pascal considered this to be the strangest. He says, "A man spends many days and nights in rage and despair over the loss of his job or for some imaginary insult to his honor, yet he does not consider with anxiety and emotion that he will lose everything by death. It is a monstrous thing to see in the same heart and at the same time this sensibility to trifles and this strange insensibility to the greatest objects--death. It is an incomprehensible enchantment and a supernatural slumber, which indicates as its cause an all-powerful force," such as maya.
Prabhupada: This is, this is instruction of Bhagavad-gita, that one who does not believe in God or disobeys the orders of God, a day will come when God will come as death, and his all power, all false prestige, all imagination, all plans will be all broken. Then after that, according to the transmigration of the soul, that person, because he did not obey the orders of God, he acted like animals, he gets the body of an animal. This is transmigration. And he suffers.
Hayagriva: He also writes, "If we submit everything to reason, our religion will have no mysterious and supernatural element. If we offend the principles of reason, our religion will be absurd and ridiculous."
Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. Because religion means the orders given by God. So if we faithfully carry out the orders of God, then that is religion. But if we don't carry out the orders of God, this is cheating religion. That is not religion. That is condemned in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. That cheating religion are kicked out from the Srimad-Bhagavatam. So any religious system which has no conception of God and does everything, every year changes by resolution of the priests, that "Now this is all right," against religious principles--that is a farce. That is not religion.
Hayagriva: This is by way of saying that we should not accept our faith blindly, but at the same time we should not expect everything to be comprehensible to our understanding.
Prabhupada: Yes. That just like the father and the child. The father says, "You do this." So that is all-comprehensive. The father's idea is complete; it is good for the son. But the son says, "No. I want to act in this way." That is his folly. Similarly, what God says, that is religion, and... So there is no question of blind following. If you know, "Here is God. He is all-perfect, and whatever He is saying, that is all-perfect. Let me accept it," then you are gainer. And if apply your reasoning and change it according to your whims, then you suffer.
Hayagriva: He also writes, "The greatness of man is great in that he knows himself to be miserable. A tree does not know itself to be miserable. These miseries prove man's greatness. They are the miseries of a great lord, a deposed king."
Prabhupada: Yes. The..., that is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that you are trying to live long, so does the tree not live longer than you? If you are trying by scientific method how to live more than hundred years or (indistinct), but the tree is living for ten thousands of years. Does it mean this is perfection of life, to live long? That is not perfection of life. So in this way, analyze all other living condition. When you come to God consciousness, that living condition is perfect, because by God consciousness or Krsna consciousness you understand God--how to behave with Him; what is your relationship with God--then you become perfect and you go to the kingdom of God and live there eternally.
Hayagriva: Descartes was more in the jnani tradition, and Pascal more in the bhakti tradition. He says, "Employ the rule of love not of intellect," and for Pascal, knowledge can only be attained by curbing the passions, submitting to God, and accepting the revelation of God. And he was also Christian. And he said "There is no happiness apart from religion."
Prabhupada: Yes. We say the same thing, that without religion one is animal. Because the animal society there is no church, there is no religion, there is no discussion about God. So if the human society, as they are doing now, that they are denying discussion about God even in the schools and colleges, so it is the most degraded form of society, and the consequence is there: they are all suffering.
Hayagriva: Although he was considered a great philosopher, he concluded that philosophy in itself only leads to skepticism, that faith is needed, and he always added here, "God."
Prabhupada: Philosophy means, real philosophy means to understand the truth. That is philosophy. So without understanding about the truth, if he encourages untruth... Just like some philosophers are philosophizing on sex life. So the people are becoming degraded. So what is philosophy in sex life, that is an (indistinct). It is there in animal and man also. So sex life is not actual life; it is a symptom of life only. So if we stress on this point only, that is not philosophy. Philosophy means, as it is stated, tattva jnanartham darsanam. To find out the Absolute Truth, tattva, that is philosophy. And tattva means the spirit soul or the spiritual atmosphere. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate. So those who are discussing about Brahman or Paramatma, Supersoul, or Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are real philosopher because they are trying to find out the Absolute Truth, and others are bogus.
Hayagriva: That's, that's all.
Prabhupada: That's all. (end)
Philosophy Discussions SPINOZA.HAY
Benedict Spinoza
Hayagriva: Spinoza. Spinoza says that "The infinite God must possess infinite attributes." He is saying that God, being the basis of all existence, cannot be described in a material way. He is a pantheist in the sense that he believes in the one substance. However, he believes that God has infinite divine attributes, and only two of these attributes fall within the realm of human experience, and these are thought and extension, or mind and matter.
Prabhupada: So, so far God is concerned, and undoubtedly He is unlimited and His qualities are unlimited. So His one of the most important quality is called Bhakta-vatsala. He is very much dear to His devotee, Bhakta-vatsala. So He has unlimited devotees and unlimited dealings with them; therefore He is unlimitedly expanded. That is pantheism. But it does not mean because He is unlimitedly expanded, His personality is lost. He is person always, even though He is unlimitedly expanded. That is the Vedic version: purnasya purnam adaya purnam eva avasisyate. He is complete, and if another complete form expands from Him, still He remains complete. He is not lost. The material conception is if one unit, if something is taken from it, then it becomes less of that thing. But God is so complete that you can go on taking from Him unlimitedly, still He remains unlimited. That is pantheist. I think they are impersonalist.
Hayagriva: Yes. Spinoza is impersonal. He asserts that God cannot be a remote cause of the creation. He says that the creation flows from God in the same way that conclusions flow from principles in mathematics. God is free to create, but He is the eminent cause. That is to say, the creation is an extension of Himself.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is, He creates by His energy. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated,
bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh
kham mano buddhir eva ca
bhinna me prakrtih astadha
These eight kinds of material elements--earth, water, air, fire, sky, mind, intelligence and ego--they are material energies, and this material world is made of these material elements. So because it is made of God's energy, therefore it is called created by God. But this is creation of His energy. Prakrtih pradhana, upadhana, pradhana. The ingredients are coming from Him, and prakrtih, nature, creates. This is the idea of creation. So God is a remote cause and a eminent cause also, because these elements, they are God's energy. So the eminent cause is the energy. Therefore it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, maya tatam idam sarvam: "By Me, everything is expanding." So when He says "By Me," then He is the eminent cause. There are two causes: remote and eminent.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: So both, He is remote cause and eminent cause.
Hayagriva: Both remote and eminent.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He says that each soul coincides with its body. That is to say, the soul acquires a body befitting it...
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: ...a soul acquires a body befitting it. A soul can progress beyond bodies to come to know spiritual truths by turning toward God rather than the material world.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Or, as Spinoza would put it, by turning toward God's extensions. He calls them God's extensions.
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: Because he is pantheistic.
Prabhupada: This is..., expansion also we accept. What is called, there is technical name, pracara (?). Expansion, that is stated in Bhagavatam, maya tatam idam sarvam: "By Me everything is expanded." This very word is used. Maya tatam idam sarvam. So expansion is also God, but at the same time in expansion there is no God. "No God" means not in person. The expansion is imperson, but expansion is from the person. Just as a government, this is impersonal, but the governor is person. So government means under the control of the governor. So impersonal expansion of God is controlled by the personal God. This is like pantheism. And pantheism, so I think that because everything is God, that God has no personal existence. Is it not?
Hayagriva: Yes. Pantheists would say that God is eminent in everything.
Prabhupada: Everything.
Hayagriva: But has no personal or remote...
Prabhupada: So that is material thought. That is material thought, because the paper in your hand, if it is made into pieces and thrown, expanding, then the original paper is lost. So this is material conception. But the spiritual conception is that He may expand Himself unlimitedly; still, He remains in His own person.
Hayagriva: He believed that as long as man is composed of body and soul, he will be under the mode of passion, and as long as the soul is confined to the body, the living entity will necessarily be attached to the physical world.
Prabhupada: Yes. We call it maya. So that can... The body and soul in the material world is there, and therefore the aim of life is how to separate this soul from material body and remain in his original, spiritual form. That is the whole ideal objective for human life, because as long as he remains attached to the body, and... But he has to change the body. That is our practical experience also. We are changing always the body, one after another, and if we give up our attachment for this body, then we are liberated. That is called mukti, to remain in a spiritual body. That is possible only by always thinking of God. That is meditation. That is actual meditation. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakta, always thinking of Krsna. To become Krsna's devotee, to become worshiper of Krsna, and always offering obeisances: "My Lord, I am Your eternal servant. Kindly keep me engaged in Your service"--that much prayer; nothing more. Then he remains always in... (break)
Hayagriva: Continuation of Spinoza. Spinoza considered good and evil to relate only to man. They have no basis in God, who is beyond good and evil.
Prabhupada: Right. But as everything is God, as Spinoza thinks that his... What is his position of bad? What is his conception?
Hayagriva: That God is beyond good and...
Prabhupada: God is beyond, but what is his position of evil? Evil is there, but he said that God has no evil. Then wherefrom the evil comes?
Hayagriva: Seems inconsistent.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He writes...
Prabhupada: We, we say that God... Good and evil, they are also emanation from God. Evil is the back side and good is the front side.
Hayagriva: He writes, "He who knows himself and knows his affections clearly and distinctly, and that with the accompaniment of the idea of God is joyous, for he knows and loves God. Thus through knowledge of the self one can come to know something of God, and in this way man can be happy and love God." But there is no mention here of service.
Prabhupada: Love means service. Just like mother loves the child, she gives, she gives service. The father loves the child, she gives the service, he gives the service. So,
dadati pratigrhnati
guhyam akhyati prcchati
bhunkte bhojayate caiva
sad-vidham priti-laksanam
Love means to give and to accept some gift from the lover, dadati pratigrhnati, to feed him and to take foodstuff from him, to disclose his mind to him and understand his mind also. These six reciprocation of dealings is love. So love includes service.
Hayagriva: Spinoza's God is clearly not a personal God. Spinoza is an impersonalist, and his love for God is more intellectual or philosophical than theistic or religious. Being an impersonalist, Spinoza believed in the identity of the individual soul with God. This is not to say that he believed that the individual soul is infinite, but that it is not distinct from God. He writes, "Thus that love of the soul is a part of the infinite love with which God loves Himself." He sees the soul's intellectual love of God and God's love for the individual soul, which is within man, to be one and the same love.
Prabhupada: Love is five kinds of love: santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya. The beginning of love is awe and adoration: "Oh, God is so great. God is everything." When he understands God's potency, unlimitedness, the soul adores Him. That adoration is also love. When that adoration is further advanced, then he serves God as master and servant. When the service is more intimate, then friend to friend--as one friend renders service to other friend, the other friend renders to other friend, like that, reciprocal. Then further expanded, the love is turned into paternal love, and further expanded it is expanding into conjugal love. So there are different stages of love. So Spinoza is touching only the beginning of love, simply adoring, appreciating God's power, expansion, that much. But when this love of adoration expands, that is called dasya-rasa, sakhya-rasa, vatsalya-rasa, madhurya-rasa. So he is on the beginning state of loving God. He has not advanced farther.
Hayagriva: It, it seems that he believes in the Paramatma present within all beings but does not believe in the jiva along with Paramatma. Is this a typical impersonalist position?
Prabhupada: That means he does not know what is love. If God loves the living entity, then He must be well-wisher, friend of the living entity. And because God expands Himself unlimitedly, therefore He lives with the living entity, and living entities are unlimited. That is said in the Bhagavad-gita: isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati. In Upanisads also it is confirmed that two birds are sitting on tree; one is eating the fruit and the other is simply witness. So this witnessing bird is God; therefore Paramatma and jivatma live together. And there are many other places--sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto. He reminds the living entity that "Unless Paramatma is there, I forget everything of my past life." But because I wanted to enjoy something in my past life, God gives him the opportunity and reminds him, "Now you wanted this. Here is the opportunity. You do it." So Paramatma is always with the jiva.
Hayagriva: He does not believe that God has a body because by body, he says, we understand a certain quantity possessing life, breadth and depth, limited by some fixed form, and that to attribute these to God, a being absolutely infinite, is the greatest absurdity.
Prabhupada: No. God has body, but not this material body. The material body is limited. That does not mean... This is imperfect knowledge of the spiritual quality. God has got body. That is confirmed in Vedic literature, sac-cid-ananda vigrahah. Vigraha means body, a form. But His form is eternal. He is all-aware, sat-cit, and He is always blissful. So this body is neither eternal nor blissful nor all-awareness. Therefore this body is different from God's body. But God has got a body which is different in quality. That is spiritual body.
Hayagriva: He writes, "God is free from passions, nor is He affected with any emotion of joy or sorrow. Properly speaking, God loves no one and hates no one, for God is not affected with any emotion of joy or sorrow, and consequently he neither loves nor hates anyone."
Prabhupada: Yes. He is called atma-pama (?). He doesn't require anything from anyone. He is complete. But if anyone offers Him something out of love, it is his benefit who is offering something to God. God doesn't require anything. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita God says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati: "A devotee, out of his love, even he offers Me a little leaf, little water, little flower," tad aham asnami, "I eat that." So God is fully satisfied in Himself. Why He desires a patram puspam phalam toyam from a devotee? It is not for His benefit. But if he begins to offer something out of love, then his love begins with God. He gives him the chance. So offering to God does not mean God is benefited. It is benefit of the devotee that he begins to offer, and if he gradually develops that love, then his life is successful. So it is a chance. God does not require anything, but the giver, whatever he, he gives to God, it is for his own benefit. Just like the example is given, the..., if your face is decorated, then the reflection of the face in the mirror is automatically decorated. So we are reflection of God. If God is decorated then we become decorated. That is the idea.
Hayagriva: So when Krsna destroys demons, He does so without passion or without hatred?
Prabhupada: Yes, naturally. It is the benefit of the demon.
Hayagriva: Spinoza writes, "No sorrow can exist with the accompanying idea of God. No one can hate God."
Prabhupada: Therefore He is sac-cid-ananda. That is the description of Vedic literature, ananda-mayo 'bhyasat, by nature is always full of pleasure. He is the source of pleasure. We therefore see Krsna's picture when He is dancing with the gopis, He looks very pleasing, and when He is killing some demon He looks very pleasing. Not that He is morose that His is killing, because you know that He is not killing; He is giving him salvation.
Hayagriva: Well, he says no one can hate God, but what about Kamsa and others?
Prabhupada: That is demonic. Naturally one is in love with God. He should love God. But when he is in maya he thinks himself as separate from God. Instead of loving Him, he thinks himself as separate from God. Instead of loving Him, he thinks that God is hindrance, my competitor of sense gratification, therefore avoid God, kill God, I become absolute sense gratifier. Anyone who hates God means he is a demon.
Hayagriva: Spinoza writes, "The more we understand individual objects, the more we understand God." Is this the proper process? Wouldn't you say that the more we understand God the more we understand individual objects? Which is uh...
Prabhupada: Anything you take, that is perfection of knowledge in God. Which thing is not related with God? Everything is related with God. In the material world anything you will take it is made of the five elements, but these five elements, they are expansion of God's energy. So intelligent person sees in everything with reference to God's expansion of energy. That is the position of devotee. He does not think anything separate from God. And as he is lover of God, devotee of God, he wants to engage everything, because if everything is God's property, that should be used for God's benefit. This is devotee's conception. The asuras, they have no conception of God. Neither they are obedient to God, neither lover of God. He thinks the material world is for his enjoyment. He cannot see the material world is expansion of God's energy. Therefore anyone who uses the material product for his personal benefit, he is called a thief. Just like I have created something. If somebody use up that something and does not think of the proprietor, he is a thief. Thief means, in our childhood we got a definition of thief, that anything taken without the permission the property is theft. That is very nice. So anything in this world has reference to the expansion of energy of God. So if you do not take everything as prasadam, then you are thief and you are punishable. A thief is always punished. So therefore those who are enjoying things without reference to the God, they are all demons and they are punishable. They are thieves.
Hayagriva: That's all on Spinoza. (end)
Philosophy Discussions LEIBNITZ.HAY
Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibnitz
Hayagriva: And this is Leibnitz, Leibnitz.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Hayagriva: Concerning the relation between the soul and the body, Leibnitz writes, "In so far as the soul has perfection and distinct thoughts, God has accommodated the body to the soul and has arranged beforehand that the body is impelled to execute its orders," the orders of the soul.
Prabhupada: Who, who orders?
Hayagriva: "God has accommodated the body to the soul and has arranged before..."
Prabhupada: That is explained in Bhagavad-gita,
isvarah sarva-bhutanam
hrd-dese arjuna tisthati
bhramayan sarva-bhutani
yantrarudhani mayaya
That the body is a machine. The soul wanted to walk or move in a certain specific way, and He has given these instructions. Just like if you want to go by car, the car is there; if you want to go by bus, the bus is there; if you want to go by railway, the railway is there; if you want to fly by airship, the airship is there. Similarly, the soul is desiring in a particular way, and God is supplying through His material agent a..., that particular type of body. Therefore the bird is flying, the fish is within the water, and the uncivilized men or animals within the forest and civilized men in the city. In this way different, 8,400,000's of different bodies are there according to the desire of the soul, and the machine of the body is supplied by nature under the order of God. This is explained.
Hayagriva: Oh, he says insofar as the soul is perfect it controls the body, but insofar as the soul is imperfect or its perceptions are confused, the soul is slaved by the passions arising out of corporeal representations.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: In other words, uh...
Prabhupada: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita very nicely, that the soul is in this material world, and he is influenced by the three modes of material nature. So according to his position under the influence of three different kinds of modes, he is getting this body. It is on account of his free will. Just like if he wants to eat anything and everything up to stool, then he is given the body of a pig. If he wants to eat direct blood, sucking, then he gets the body of a tiger. And if he wants to eat first-class nutritious food, then he is given the body of a brahmana. In this way we are getting different types of bodies according to our desire. We are creating different types of desires, that "We shall be happy in this way, we shall be happy in this way." Just like we see practically, somebody is going to the restaurant, he thinks, "By eating here in restaurant I shall be happy." And somebody is going to the Krsna consciousness temple, he is thinking that "I shall be happy by eating here." So Krsna has given everyone the chance, but he is trying to be happy but he is not becoming happy, because he is misusing his intelligence, cent percent abiding by the orders of God; therefore he is suffering. As such, Krsna comes personally and induces him that "You don't desire in this way. You give up all this material desire. You simply desire to act according My order, you surrender unto Me, and I will give you all happiness."
Hayagriva: Leibnitz pictures a kind of city of God. He writes, "God is the monarch of the most perfect republic composed of all the spirits, and the happiness of this city of God is His principal purpose. The primary purpose in the moral world, or the city of God, which constitutes the noblest part of the universe, ought to be to extend the greatest happiness possible."
Prabhupada: Yes. We agree to that. If everyone becomes Krsna conscious and acts according to the instruction of Krsna, then this hell, hellish world, becomes the city of God.
Hayagriva: He says we must... "Therefore we must not doubt that God has so ordained everything that spirits not only shall live forever, because this is unavoidable, but that they shall also preserve forever their moral quality so that His city may never lose a person."
Prabhupada: Yes. This is Vaikuntha conception, yaj jnatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam, "That is My specific place, where going nobody returns back to this miserable material world." These ideas are taken from Vedic literature, that's all. They are not new. It is known already to the Vedic students. Everyone has taken from Vedas, and they have presented their own way.
Hayagriva: He writes, "The soul changes its body only gradually and by degrees, so that it is never deprived of all its organs at once. There is often a metamorphosis in animals, but never metempsychosis or transmigration of souls."
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: That is he does not believe that the souls in animals transmigrate at death from one body to another.
Prabhupada: Then what is his understanding of the soul?
Hayagriva: He says there are no entirely separate souls without bodies.
Prabhupada: That is rascal. That means he is imperfect. How he can say so when we practically see that the soul is changing from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood? How he can say like that? He is transmigrating. That is, every day we have experience. How he can deny that? Otherwise, if he, if the soul does not transmigrate, then how the child becomes a young man? The body is different. The, this is simple understanding, that he has changed the body. The body changes and the soul remains eternal.
Hayagriva: He further writes on this... He says, "There is strictly speaking neither absolute birth nor complete death consisting in the separation of the soul from the body. What we call birth is development or growth, as what we call death is envelopment and diminution."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is transmigration. That is transmigration. He hasn't..., he is not dead, but he has developed into another body. That is transmigration. Then why does he deny that?
Hayagriva: So he says, in other words, as soon as the human soul leaves the body, it must immediately...
Prabhupada: Enters another body.
Hayagriva: ...enter another.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: But not nec..., but not in the case of ghosts.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: With the exception of...
Prabhupada: Ghost, he is already in the body.
Hayagriva: Oh, uh huh, the subtle body.
Prabhupada: The subtle body.
Hayagriva: He further writes, "God alone is wholly without body."
Prabhupada: Yes. He has no material body. He does not transmigrate.
Hayagriva: He didn't...
Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna says, avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritah: "The rascals, they think, because I am just like a human being, they think I am another human being." He is not human being; He is the Supreme Person. And when He said that "I remember," this is also another proof, that "I spoke to the sun-god millions of years ago." Because He remembers, that means He does not change His body. Just like we can remember of this body so many things, so long as..., but we do not remember what I was in the past life because the body has changed. And Krsna remembers because His body has not changed. He is in the same body.
Hayagriva: Leibnitz did not believe that the city of God, what he called the city of God, is divorced from the natural world. Rather, it is a moral world within the natural world. He writes, "The assembling of all spirits must compose the city of God. That is the most perfect state possible and of the most perfect of monarchs," meaning God. "This city of God, this truly universal monarchy, is a moral world within the natural world and the highest and most divine of the works of God."
Prabhupada: Yes. We can construct such city immediately if the League of Nation--they are trying to be united--they come to their right sense, that this planet does not belong to any particular nation; it belongs to God. This simple fact, if they accept and cultivate on this point, then immediately the whole world will be the city of God. But they will not do this. They have gone to the United Nation to settle up all problems of the world, but they keep themselves in the dog's mentality: "I am this body." "I am American," "I am Indian." But he is not. But if they give up this designation, that "I am American," "Indian" or "Hindu" or "Muslim," "Christian..." We are all part and parcel of God, and the whole planet belongs to God. We are His sons, and we can live peacefully as the sons of father. Father is supplying everything, so we can utilize. Now they, in some country, just like in Australia or New Zealand we find enough cows to supply milk, and in India practically there is no milk. So if the United Nations gives this, accepts this version, that everything belongs to God, so where is the scarcity? It may be in one place one thing is in scarcity, but other place it is enough. So where it is enough, that can be distributed where there is need. Then immediately it becomes city of God. If anyone abides by the order of God and everything produced is divided among the sons of God, then where is the question of scarcity? There is..., there cannot be any scarcity. But they have no reason. They are denying the actual fact that everything belongs to God. It is common sense. Such a vast ocean, who has created this? Has any nation has created, or any individual person has created? So to whom belongs this ocean? What will be the answer? Huh? What will be the answer? If I question that "Shall we dig a little ditch and there is water. We fill up." So such a big ditch, who has done it? Where is the question that there is no God? Somebody has done. That is common sense. And who has done it not only this one ocean--millions of oceans are floating in the sky--who has done it? Who has created? Huh? What will be the answer? So they, this modern so-called civilization, they have lost their common sense. They want to remain in animal consciousness; therefore they are suffering. (end)
Philosophy Discussions LOCKE.HAY
John Locke
Hayagriva: And John Locke, Locke is the..., is most famous for his conception of tabula rasa, or blank slate, that a child is born with no innate ideas. He states that "If there are innate or inborn ideas, all men would have them." That is to say, there would be universal consent. He writes, "This argument of universal consent, which is made use of to prove innate principles, seems to me a demonstration that there are none such because there are none to which all mankind give a universal consent." So it cannot be argued that all people have an innate or inborn idea of God since there is no universal consent on this subject. Well, do innate ideas have to be universal? Might not some living entities have some innate ideas and other living entities have others? Why does an innate idea have to be universal and apply to everyone?
Prabhupada: Yes. Innate idea is that there is somebody. That is developed consciousness. The animals, they cannot think, on account of nondeveloped consciousness, but even in human society, uncivilized society, they have got the innate idea of some superior form. When there is lightning, they offer obeisances. When they see big ocean, they offer obeisances, something big. So that innate idea is universal, to offer obeisances to something wonderful. But this innate idea of accepting something supreme and offering respect is not developed in the animal. So this innate idea is there. When it is not developed, it is animal, and when it is developed, then it is human being. And a perfect human being is he, when he has developed this innate idea to the fullest stage. That is Krsna consciousness.
Hayagriva: Would it not be better to say that the living entity is born with certain tendencies, rather than innate ideas, which carry over from a previous life?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: And that he needs only meet with some stimulus in order for these tendencies to be manifest?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like when the, a dog, cat, is born it has no eyes, and it searches out the nipples of the mother. So although his eyes are all closed--you have seen the dogs--but because in his previous life as dog he had the experience where to find out the food, so even though it cannot see, it traces out where is the food. That is past experience and that is the proof of the continuation of the soul eternally. Just like I am living in this room and, say, for ten years I am absent from this room, but after ten years when I come here, immediately I remember where is the toilet, where is my sitting place, everything. So that remembrance comes from the last visit. So a living entity is passing through different species of form. That is his material life. So in some previous life, millions of years, when he was a dog, he knew where to find out his food, so immediately in the dog's body again, he remembers. (break)
Hayagriva: This is the continuation of John Locke. Now you said that from your very birth you knew that Krsna was the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now does this mean that from your very birth you were acquainted with the name Krsna, or didn't your father have to at least say the word once? Now Locke would argue that the idea of Krsna is not an innate idea because it is not universally assented to.
Prabhupada: Universally...?
Hayagriva: Universally, not everyone acknowledges that Krsna is God, so he would say that idea is not inborn in the mind.
Prabhupada: No. In the material world they have got different ideas. That undeveloped mind has got different ideas, but developed, what is called, idea or conception, perfect conception is Krsna consciousness. So if one remembers Krsna consciousness after his birth, that means he had previously cultivated. There is a verse, you can find out: atah. Find that.
Devotee: Gita?
Prabhupada: Yes. The word begins atah paurva-dehikam. You can stop the machine and find it. (break) You can record it. Tatra tam paurva-dehikam buddhi-samyogam. Yes, that is. Therefore Krsna consciousness, culture of Krsna consciousness, is never lost. It goes on, unless it is perfect. Therefore it is stated, sv-alpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. Even little acting on Krsna consciousness can save one from the greatest danger--as it was done by Ajamila. He cultivated Krsna consciousness in the beginning of his life, then he fell down, he became the greatest debauch. But at the end of life again he remembered Narayana and he got salvation. Tatra tam buddhi-samyogam. Read Bhagavad-gita carefully. All answers are there. This philosopher cannot go beyond Bhagavad-gita.
Hayagriva: Some people have been said to have remembered events in their previous lives. How are these reminiscences or ideas different from innate ideas? How is it possible for one to recall events?
Prabhupada: Innate idea is in everyone, that is, "God is great, and I am," what is called, "controlled." That innate idea is everywhere. But sometimes, out of ignorance one tries to become God. That is not possible. That is maya, and he suffers from this. Artificially trying to become God, that is simply waste of time. It will never become possible. That is called maya. Otherwise, innate idea is that he is servant and God is great. That is innate idea.
Hayagriva: He writes, "The knowledge of our own being we have by intuition. The existence of a God, reason dearly makes known to us. We have a more certain knowledge of the existence of a God than of anything our senses can discover." Now how is this? If this is the case, how is it that some men have no conception of God?
Prabhupada: He has conception of God, practically, but because under the spell of maya he has become foolish, he tries to cover that conception, that somebody is there. How any sane man can deny that some superior power is there who has created this vast ocean, vast land, vast sky? How one sane man can avoid this conception? Nobody can avoid, but artificially, foolishly, he tries to avoid. Atheism. But that will not endure, that will not stay. His foolishness will be exposed. So this is innate idea, but the atheist class, demon class, they want to cover this innate idea artificially.
Hayagriva: And Locke argues on behalf of private property given to man by God. That is to say a man may have a certain stewardship over a certain amount of property. Is this in compliance with the Isopanisadic version?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Tena tyaktena bhunjitha: everything belongs to God. Just like the father has got many sons and the father is the proprietor of the house. He gives one son, "This is your room," the other son, "This is your room." So the obedient son is satisfied what the father allows to him. Others, those who are not obedient, they want to disturb other brother that "This room also belongs to me." That creates chaos and confusion in the world. The United Nations, they have created a society for unity of the nations, but actually that is not unity. That is another way of encroaching upon others' property. Therefore there is no peace, unless they accept God is the Supreme proprietor. And we must be satisfied with the allotment God has given to us. Then there is no trouble. But the trouble is that we are not satisfied with the allotment given to us. That allotment can be understood by language or similar culture. So why one should encroach upon others' property which is allotted by God? That creates disturbance. So this so-called modern civilized man, first of all they create disturbances, and then they want to make some adjustment. Of course, for the good of a certain people, if somebody encroaches... But they do not know what is good. They encroach upon others' property for their personal sense gratification. Otherwise, if for the good of the local people somebody, some (indistinct), just like the Aryans, they conquered over many islands or places, but that was for the good of them. Just like the Pandavas, they also ruled over, but the Pandavas were God conscious devotees and they made everyone enlightened in God consciousness. That kind of encroachment. Just like Lord Ramacandra went to Ceylon, or Lanka, and conquered over it, because Ravana was a demon. So He conquered, Lord Ramacandra conquered over the property of Ravana, and gave it to Vibhisana, but He did not take anything. Just like Krsna conducted, managed this Kuruksetra war personally, but the kingdom was given to Yudhisthira. He did not encroach. So this kind of encroachment is all right, that everyone should be Krsna conscious, everyone should be highly elevated in spiritual life. For spreading this civilization, encroaching on others' property is quite fit. But if one encroaches upon others' property for self-aggrandizement, for stealing for his own sense gratification, that is sinful.
Hayagriva: So much for Locke.
Prabhupada: Hm. That's all. (end)
Philosophy Discussions BERKELEY.HAY
George Berkeley
Hayagriva: Berkeley. Berkeley--very brief section on Berkeley. Berkeley seems to be arguing against objective reality. In other words, three men standing in a field looking at a tree could all have a different impression or idea of the tree, or at least according to his argument. The problem is, although there are three impressions of the tree, each differing from one another, there is no tree as such. Now, how does the tree as such exist? In the mind of God? Is it possible for a conditioned living entity to perceive the suchness or essence of anything?
Prabhupada: Everything means God, expansion of God's energy. So how tree or anything can be without reference to God? We see that the earthen pot is on the ground, on the, what is called, ground?
Hayagriva: The what?
Prabhupada: Earthen pot, pot, pots made of earth.
Hayagriva: Earthen pots, pot that's made of earth.
Prabhupada: So it is staying on earth, so the earthen pot is not different from the earth. So everything is expansion of God's energy. How we can avoid God with reference to anything that we see? There cannot be anything independent of God. The example is there: the earthen pot, as soon as you see, we remember the potter, that "Who has made?" and the wheel of the potter. So a... God is the original creator, He is the ingredient, and He is the category also, and He is the original substance. That is the conception, Vedic conception of God. He is everything. That is nondual conception. And if you make anything separate from God, then how you can say sarvam khalu idam brahma, "Everything is Brahman"? Then if you say everything is God, at the same time you separate something from God, so that is, what is called, contradiction. Our conception is, "Yes, actually everything has reference to the God, so everything is God's property. It should be utilized for God's service." That is our Krsna consciousness movement.
Hayagriva: In his last dialogue, Berkeley writes, "The apprehension of a distant Deity naturally disposes men to be negligent of their moral actions, which they would be more cautious of in case they thought Him"--that is God--"immediately present."
Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. We say, the Vedic sastra says, that God is everywhere; He is not distant. In the Kunti's prayer it is said, "God is distant and nearest also." So nearest, by God's paramatma feature, He is living in everyone's heart, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese... So He is within our heart; how He can be distant? But at the same time He is in His personal feature, He is in Goloka Vrndavana, which, beyond, far, far beyond this material existence. So that is God's all-pervasive equality, that although He is far, far away, still He is near, nearest. The crude example is there that the heater, the original source of heat and light, is far, far away, ninety-three millions miles according to the modern scientist calculation, the sun. But still the light is in my room. So God is both far away and also within my heart. So one who is expert to see God, he sees both way. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto. Although He is living in His own abode eternally, and enjoying with His associates, still He is present everywhere. That is God.
Hayagriva: Well, in what way is God concerned with the moral or immoral actions of man? Is God indifferent to them, or has He simply set the laws of nature in motion and allowed men to follow their own course and reap the fruit of their own karma?
Prabhupada: The nature's course is that because we have disobeyed God, therefore we are thrown into this material world under the supervision of the material nature to correct him. So, so long he is in the material world, there is distinction between moral and immoral. Although both of them are material, it has, actually has no meaning, moral or immoral. But in the material world that conception is there, moral or immoral. But when one is in the spiritual world, there is no such thing as immoral; everything is moral. Just like gopis, they were others' wives, but they were coming to Krsna in dead of night. That is immoral. But because they are coming to Krsna, it is not immoral. Therefore in the spiritual world there is no such thing as moral or immoral. Everything is moral. In the material world there must be moral and immoral; otherwise this material transaction cannot go properly.
Hayagriva: So much for Berkeley. (end)
Philosophy Discussions HUME.HAY
David Hume
Hayagriva: These are notations on David Hume. Abstract objects, relations, space, matter and time are all considered by Hume to be mind-dependent perceptions. In other words, perceptions are all there is. He rejects revealed religion, that is, the religion of the sastras, and embraces natural religion, that is, a religion wherein the existence of God can be proved or even shown to be probable by argument and reason. According to Hume we really know nothing of God, for at the most we can only know are peoples' ideas of God, and these are but perceptions. It would thus seem that it is impossible to know God according to Hume's natural religion because the senses are admittedly imperfect, and these are the only instruments of certainty Hume admits in his natural religion.
Prabhupada: What is that natural religion?
Hayagriva: Well, he says the self is nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions which succeed each other with inconceivable rapidity and are in perpetual flux and movement. So he says there's nothing but perception. He rejects revealed scriptures as such, but he says, "The heavens and the earth join in the same testimony. The whole course of nature raises one hymn to the praises of its creator. I have found a Deity and here I stop my inquiry. Let those go further who are wiser or more enterprising."
Prabhupada: First point is that our senses are imperfect. That is admitted. And God is perception. But whether he believes actually in the existence of God?
Hayagriva: He believes in the existence of God.
Prabhupada: And what is his perception of God? If he believes in God, then he must give some idea what is God.
Hayagriva: He has no idea other than the fact that...
Prabhupada: Anyway, if he believes in God, a fact, then instead of so-called perception, why not understand from God what He is?
Hayagriva: Well, he, um...
Prabhupada: Our senses are imperfect. We, we admit that there is God. Now, if our senses are imperfect, how we can imagine "God is like this," "God is like that"? That actually if God explains Himself, why should we not accept that?
Hayagriva: In his, uh... Hume appears opposed to the search for God in the ideal world. He writes, "Why not stop at the material world? How can we satisfy ourselves without going on ad infinitum, forever. If the material world rests upon a similar ideal world, this ideal world must rest upon some other and so on, without end. It were better, therefore, never to look beyond the present material world.
Prabhupada: Material world means full of miseries. Therefore those who are advanced, they are searching after another world where there is no misery. This is the idea. And this searching after happy world, that is permanent. Everyone is searching after that. That is not unnatural. But actually there is such world, and if there is, why should you not hanker after that world?
Hayagriva: He appears opposed...
Prabhupada: Two things: that this world is experienced, nobody is happy, unless he is an animal. Animal, they do not know what is happiness or distress. In any condition they remain satisfied. But a man, he feels pain. Just like our Hari-sauri was speaking that there were reports that because the children cry, sometimes parents kill them. This is the world. And actually there have been many cases. So from practical point of view, this world is not happy. That is a fact. Now if there is a happy world, why one should not try for that?
Hayagriva: He says the sooner we arrive at that divine being--the sooner we arrive at God--so much the better.
Prabhupada: We become God?
Hayagriva: No. In the search for God...
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: ...the sooner we find God, the better. He says when you go one step beyond the mundane system, you only excite an inquisitive humor, which it is impossible ever to satisfy.
Prabhupada: What..., I do not follow what you mean. What is the meaning of this?
Hayagriva: He appear... He is opposed to the search for God in the other world.
Prabhupada: No. You cannot search out God in your present condition. You have got some glimpse of idea that there is God. What is that mean--"There is God, then you are advanced"? At least you are better than the atheist. But by speculation you cannot understand what is God. Revelation is there to fortunate person, one who is very seriously searching after God. God is within himself. He reveals. And the other process is that if you are searching after God, then you know it from the person who has already known God, or directly from God. So the Bhagavad-gita is direct perception from God, so with our all reasons, all logic, if we try to understand Bhagavad-gita, then we understand what is God.
Hayagriva: Hume is a famous skeptic, and he would reject a revealed scripture. He looks toward science. He says all the new discoveries in astronomy...
Prabhupada: Then if he is skeptic, that why one should believe his words and take his instruction? He is skeptic, so others skeptically reject his statement also. So there is no use of his talking.
Hayagriva: Well, he felt that...
Prabhupada: Now you said that he is skeptic.
Hayagriva: Oh, yes. He felt...
Prabhupada: So he is also skeptic. So why people should be induced to believe him and hear him? He is immediately rejected.
Hayagriva: He felt that instead of basing belief in God...
Prabhupada: No, he should not think, because nobody will take his instruction. He does not believe others, does not take others' statement--why his statement should be accepted?
Hayagriva: Well, well he believes at least in the material senses.
Prabhupada: Everyone believes that. Materially everyone believes. But if he says none of them are correct, so why he is so..., pose himself as correct? He is rejected immediately.
Hayagriva: He says, "All the new discoveries in astronomy which prove the immense grandeur and magnificence of the works of nature are so many additional arguments for a Deity according to the true system of theism," that is his natural, what he calls natural religion. In this way Hume rejects the necessity or desirability of miracles as well as the conception of a God transcendental to his creation. He says it's not the being of God that is in question but God's nature. This nature cannot be ascertained through study of the universe itself. However, if the universe can only be studied by imperfect senses, what is the value of our conclusion? How can we ever come to know the nature of God?
Prabhupada: Nature of God, it can be explained by God Himself. That is our Vedic process. We know who is God, and He explains, "My nature is this." Just like He says, "I am the greatest principle," mattah parataram nanyat. "There is no more higher principle than Me." This is fact. If something is greater than God, then how one can become God? That is not possible. So greatest means He is great in everything. He is great in richness, He is great in reputation, He is great in influence, He is great in bodily power, He is great in beauty and He is great in renunciation. If we can find out somebody that He tallies with this greatness, then He is God. So that we find in Krsna; therefore Krsna is the Supreme Lord, and what He says in the Bhagavad-gita we accept as fact. And if we analyze His statements intelligently, pruriently, then we will find that what Krsna says, that is fact.
Hayagriva: Concerning different religions, he says, "All religious systems, it is confessed, are subject to great and insuperable difficulties. Each..."
Prabhupada: (indistinct)
Hayagriva: "Each disputant triumphs in his turn while he carries on an offensive war and exposes the absurdities, barbarities and pernicious tenets of his antagonists. But all of them," that is, all of the religions, "on the whole, prepare a complete triumph for the skeptic who tells them that no system ought ever to be embraced. A total suspense of judgment is here our only reasonable recourse."
Prabhupada: No. Our principle is to know God from God, and religion means the principles given by God. Just like the law means the principle given by the state, similarly the principles given by God, that is religion. Otherwise it is pseudoreligion. If there is no conception of God, there is no direction of God, that is not religion. Religion is not a kind of blind faith. Religion is factual. That factual religion can be given by God Himself, and if we know God and what is His instruction, then we are religious.
Hayagriva: Well, he believes that religion is necessary. He says religion, however corrupted, is still better than no religion at all.
Prabhupada: Yes. That we also agree. But religion without philosophy, logic, it is sentiment. That will not help us. So just like religion given by Krsna, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru: "Always think of Me." So if you think of God always, so that is good for us, we become purified. So this is religion. We have to meditate upon God, think about God. Therefore temple worship, Deity worship is necessary so that we can constantly think of God. But if we do not know what is God, what is the form of God, how we can offer Him worship, how we can think of Him, then it is pseudoreligion. His type of religion will not help the follower. One must be definitely in understanding what is God and what does He speak and how to abide by His order. That is real religion.
Hayagriva: His conception of religion is utilitarian and social.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He says, "The proper office of religion is to regulate the heart of man, humanize their conduct, infuse the spirit of temperance, order and obedience."
Prabhupada: Yes, that is our system. We say, the social service, that "No illicit sex." If people indulge in illicit sex, society will be in chaotic condition. "No meat-eating." If we go on eating meat, then we revolt against the will of God, because God is the father of all living entities; He does not like that one of His son unnecessarily killed by another son on the plea that he is advanced son. The father cannot agree that the advanced son kill the ignorant or foolish son, the father will not agree. Therefore we say no meat-eating. When other foods are available, why one should eat meat? When there is wife, why there should be illicit sex? So religion means one should be good character. That is religion. This is one of the qualification becoming, that one who is actually religious, God conscious, that all the good qualities, either socially, politically, everything, even politician religious. Just like Arjuna, he was on the battlefield. This is politics. But because he was devotee he was hesitating to kill his enemies all. So this is the character of a devotee, that he can sacrifice his own interest because he has become a devotee. Others cannot do. (break)
Hayagriva: This is the conclusion of Hume. He felt that one must first be a philosophical skeptic before accepting the revealed truths of religion. Ultimately Hume maintains that these truths can only be accepted on faith, not experience or reason.
Prabhupada: No, and why not reason? If we think that everything has some proprietor, owner, so it is quite reasonable to think that this vast land, vast sky, vast water, nature, they must have some proprietor. What is the fault in this logic? Why they conclude that there was a chunk, there was some gas, there was something like that? So why they think like that? Is that very reasonable? Wherefrom the chunk came? Wherefrom the gas came? Wherefrom the fire came? So this is reasonable. So there is a proprietor, as it is described in this Bhagavad-gita, mayadhyaksena, aham adir hi sarvesam. So there must be some proprietor. That is logical. That is, that is philosophy. How one can..., one thing can exist without the owner or proprietor? So this is not like, that there is no proprietor. This is illogical, or without any philosophy. But think that there is a proprietor, this is completely logical.
Hayagriva: As far as we can ascertain, Hume personally had no religion, no faith in the Christian or any other God. He also rejected that argument or reason could justify a faith. Thus Hume is a complete skeptic who denies the possibility of ascertaining certainty outside of a mere sequence of perceptions or ideas.
Prabhupada: This, then the argument comes. If he does not believe in anyone's statement, why he is thinking his statement will be accepted? Then he is foolish. He is a child. Instead of becoming a philosopher, he is a child, talking all nonsense.
Hayagriva: He maintains that man cannot know ultimate reality or possess knowledge of anything beyond a mere awareness of phenomenal sensory images.
Prabhupada: That is sufficient. But if man cannot have any knowledge, so who is going to take your knowledge? Better you stop, don't talk. Is it not?
Hayagriva: So much for Hume. (laughs) That's the end of Hume.
Prabhupada: No, no, I mean is not that the conclusion? If he is skeptic, he does not take other's statement why he expects that his statement will be taken? Why does he propose any statement? Does he think that he is the greatest of all? Then everyone can think like that. That skeptic has no ground. He cannot say. If he is skeptic he should stop, he should not stand.
Hayagriva: Why write so many books?
Prabhupada: What?
Hayagriva: Why write so many books?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He was a Scotchman. (end)
Philosophy Discussions KANT.HAY
Immanuel Kant
Hayagriva: Immanuel Kant. Being a son of the Enlightenment, Kant strongly advocated the right and duty of every man to judge for himself in religious and secular matters. Indeed, he considered the motto of the Enlightenment to be, "Have courage to make use of your own intellect." The emphasis here is on individual freedom and on the ability of man to intuit the truth.
Prabhupada: Does it mean that anyone, whatever he does, that is perfectly right? If he is given that freedom, then anyone will do anything as he likes. So it will be taken as...
Hayagriva: Well he, at the same time, he considered the Bible to be the best vehicle for the instruction of the public in a truly moral religion.
Prabhupada: Then he has to accept some authority. Where is freedom?
Hayagriva: He believed that the individual can intuit truths within, but could be helped from without by scripture.
Prabhupada: Yes. That means he should not become independent, but he advocates in the beginning that everyone should be independent. So that is not right proposal. One should be dependent on authority, and that authority should be recognized or well established. Then knowledge is possible.
Hayagriva: He writes, "Absolutely no human reason can hope to understand the production of even a blade of grass by mere mechanical causes."
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore he has to know everything from the person or authority who knows that thing. That means this is perfect way of understanding, to take knowledge from the authority who is actually cognizant and knows things as they are.
Hayagriva: He believes that behind nature or mechanical laws, he says that crude matter, or prakrti, should have originally formed itself according to mechanical laws or automatically; that life should have sprung from the nature of what is lifeless. That matter should have been able to dispose itself into the form of a self-maintaining purpose is contradictory to reason. Simply by using our reason we can intuit the creator behind the creation.
Prabhupada: No. Unless there is a brain... Matter has no brain. Matter cannot combine together without a brain behind. That brain is the Supreme Lord, God. That is quite reasonable. And if somebody thinks matter automatically combines together and becomes the sun, becomes the moon, so bright, without any brain behind it--that is ludicrous.
Hayagriva: Well, he sees the design in nature, but he says the design only suggests a designer; it doesn't prove the existence of the...
Prabhupada: No. As soon as there is earthen pot, immediately the potter is understood, and that is a fact. We cannot say that it is simply understanding that there is potter, but there is no potter. That is foolishness. Without potter, the pot is never manufactured, so as soon as you see the pot, you can immediately understand that some potter has made it. That is logic. That is philosophy.
Hayagriva: He says because suffering and calamities overwhelm man in nature, it is impossible for man to see nature's final end.
Prabhupada: No. Nature is not final end. Nature is only instrument. Just like I beat you with a stick. The stick is not beating you; I am beating you. Stick is in my hand. So from nature when you get tribulation, pains, that is designed by God, and nature is instrument. Sitosna-sukha-duhkha-dah. The change of season we find nature, but why it is systematically changing unless there is brain behind nature? In such and such month there will be winter. And by accident or by some other ways the month of April does not become winter; the month of December becomes winter. So there is adjustment. So therefore there is brain behind these natural changes and activities. That is confirmed, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram.
Hayagriva: He says this can be intuited, but not known.
Prabhupada: Not known? To foolish man everything is unknown, but to a man who is in knowledge, he knows everything. From the authority or my direct perception, somehow or other the knowledge is there. So "unknown" means that he doesn't care to know. Where to take knowledge he doesn't know, neither he personally knows; therefore it is unknown.
Hayagriva: For him we cannot experience God through our senses.
Prabhupada: No, that is not possible. We always say that when God explains Himself, that is also not to everyone--only to the devotees. The devotees can accept the Personality of Godhead as He instructs. A nondevotee or atheist he cannot understand; he simply speculates. But by speculation it is not possible to understand God.
Hayagriva: Kant says that speculative reason is unable to attain to a sure or adequate conception of God.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is our..., that the speculator cannot reach vicinity of God. It is not possible. Athapi te. Only one can understand by the mercy of God, and this mercy is bestowed upon a person who is devotee, who is surrendered to God. Otherwise this mercy is reserved, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, naham prakasah sarvasya yoga-maya-samavrtah: "I am not revealed to everyone and anyone; rather, I am covered by yoga-maya." Because revelation means when one becomes devotee this covering curtain is... What is called, curtain?
Devotee: Curtain.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: Curtain.
Prabhupada: No, curtain closed and opened.
Hayagriva: Opened.
Prabhupada: Yes. Then one can understand. Just like at night there is sun in the sky--there is no doubt about it--but the night is (indistinct), prohibiting me to see the sun. But when the sun by his mercy rises in the morning, the night is immediately over and one can see this. So at night, by speculation you cannot understand sun, but when the sun rises in the morning... Sometimes we see from the airplane how within a second the sun comes out from the sea and everything becomes illuminated, and you can see things by light. You have got that experience?
Hayagriva: Hm.
Prabhupada: All of a sudden, as if it is coming from the sea.
Hayagriva: He rejects the traditional proofs of God's existence in order to clear the ground for his assertion that God is morally necessary in a moral universe. In this universe, every soul is an end in itself, and these individual souls are like citizens in a kingdom of ends. He calls it "a kingdom of ends."
Prabhupada: So why does he use that word kingdom if there is no king? This is unreasonable. Why does he say kingdom if...
Hayagriva: Oh, he would say there is a king.
Prabhupada: ...he does not believe in king? He does not believe in God. The individual souls are ends themselves.
Hayagriva: Oh, he believes in God...
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: ...but that he rejects the traditional proofs of God. He says that God is morally necessary in a moral universe. His philosophy is a philosophy of ethics and morality.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But if your, his morality does not accept God, and God is there--because we have already discussed that behind the nature there is God. So if his morality denies the existence of God, then where is the value of this morality? This morality can change at any time into degradation.
Hayagriva: His, his emphasises are on morality is based on this. He says...
Prabhupada: So what is morality?
Hayagriva: He says, "For a rational but finite being..."
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: "...the only thing..."
Prabhupada: So one man is thinking that animal killing is good, and another man is thinking animal killing is immorality. Then who is correct? Unless you know morality means this--it is coming from authority--that you have to follow it, otherwise you will be punished, then morality. Otherwise, if there is no background of forcing, that morality can be degraded into immorality at any moment.
Hayagriva: Well, this is the weak..., this seems to be the weakness in his philosophy. He says, "For a rational but finite being the only thing possible is an endless progress from the lower to the higher degrees of moral perfection." So...
Prabhupada: That means endless struggle to understand real morality. But if he takes the order of God, that he must do it, that is final morality.
Hayagriva: This is... What he means by morality is rather vague. He does not say what this moral law is, other than it's called a categorical imperative.
Prabhupada: But who is...
Hayagriva: The categorical...
Prabhupada: Who is, who will force that categorical imperative?
Hayagriva: That says, "One should act in such a way..."
Prabhupada: So how he will act? He is immoral. How he will act morally unless there is force?
Hayagriva: For him, he says that the categorical imperative is that "One should act in such a way that the maxim of one's action becomes the principle for universal law."
Prabhupada: That cannot be done. By individual soul it is impossible...
Hayagriva: For a man.
Prabhupada: ...to do something which will be universally accepted. That is nonsense. That is not possible.
Hayagriva: A man cannot establish a universal law by his own action.
Prabhupada: No. So God can do it. Just like God says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam e... Because God says, it has to be accepted. But if some individual soul said, sarva-dharman parityajya mam, who will do that? Nobody will do it. That's why we are preaching that "You surrender to Krsna." We do not say that "You surrender to me." Who will hear me? "Who are you? Why shall I surrender to you?" But if one understands that God wants this surrender, then he will agree.
Hayagriva: According to the Christian religion, at the end of the world there is a resurrection of the body, that is the gross material body. Kant does not think very much about this. He writes, "For who is so fond of his body that he would wish to drag it about with him through all eternity if he could get on without it?"
Prabhupada: That is the nature. Even a hog, pig, he is living so abominable. Still, when he is captured for being killed, he cries. He does not think that "My body is so low-grade that I have to eat stool, I live in filthy place, in a very bad smell, and I am trying to save my, this body?" But he cries. So this is called maya. Although his body is so abominable, he wants to protect it perpetually. This tendency is there because the living entity has actually..., he is perpetual living condition. He wants that, but he wants that in this material body. That is his mistake.
Hayagriva: He writes that "Man alone can be regarded as nature's own end or highest product, because on earth only man is capable of complying with the categorical imperative, the moral law."
Prabhupada: So it is accepted that nature creates man, and that is not very good philosophy. Nature creates man, then nature is supreme. There is no such thing. And nature is ultimate. Nature is dull matter. What do you call nature? Bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh: earth, water, fire. They cannot create. Nature cannot create. Otherwise the materialist scientist, they could do it by combining, combining this earth, water, air, fire. So nature is dull, lifeless. How nature can create life? What is the logic? What is the philosophy?
Hayagriva: He wouldn't say that. He would say that man is nature's final end...
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: ...because man's moral nature alone is worthwhile.
Prabhupada: No, no. He is giving stress that nature has made man. That is our objection, that nature cannot do anything. Nature has given a body that..., just like a tailor can give me a set of dress, but the dress, when I put on, the dress looks like a man, with hands and legs. But dress is nothing; it is simply outward covering of a man, a living entity. Similarly, nature gives us this material body, outward coating. The inside is living entity, that..., not the creation of this material nature. That is creation of part and parcel of God. This (indistinct) knowledge is imperfect, that nature has created man. That is imperfect knowledge.
Hayagriva: He maintains that certain knowledge of God's existence would destroy a man's freedom and reduce human experience to a show of puppets frantically currying the favor of the Almighty.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is favor. Just like nobody wants to die, but the superior power obliges everyone to die. So he is dependent. Why should you think that he is independent? That is foolishness.
Hayagriva: He sees uncertainty as a necessary ingredient for faith.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Hayagriva: Uncertainty is a necessary ingredient for faith.
Prabhupada: No. Faith, faith should not be blind. That is useless. Faith... Just like I believe in the government. This is not faith, this is fact. There is government, and I am under government's law, so I have to obey the orders of government. This is not faith; this is fact. Similarly, to one who knows God and becomes dependent on Him, that is not faith; that is fact. He is happy by his depending on God. Just like a child, he knows that "Here is my father and mother." He voluntarily depends on the parents and he is happy.
Hayagriva: In his last work Kant seems to shift his position. He says, "Morality thus leads ineluctably to religion, through which it extends itself to the idea of a powerful moral law-giver outside of mankind for whose will that is the final end of creation, which at the same time can and ought to be man's final end. Make the highest good possible in the world your own final end." So he seems to point to an absolute law-giver or an absolute morality, which is God, but he believes that this knowledge of God is ultimately uncertain.
Prabhupada: Uncertain--for the man who does not possess the perfect knowledge. But if we believe in God, if we know God, we can get perfect knowledge from Him. Then we become perfect.
Hayagriva: He says, "An ethical commonwealth can be followed only as a people under divine commands, that is, as a people of God, and indeed under laws of virtue. We might indeed conceive of a people of God under statutory laws. Under such laws, that obedience to them would concern not the morality but merely the legality of acts."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "This would be a commonwealth of which indeed God would be the law-giver."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the best quality of state. If we abide by the orders of God, or the king or the government abides by the order of God, that is ideal state.
Hayagriva: He says, "Thus the constitution of the state would be theocratic, but man as priest receiving his bequests directly would build up an aristocratic government," like the brahmanas would receive the knowledge from God.
Prabhupada: That theocratic government is Manu-samhita. That is Vedic literature given by Manu for the benefit of the human society.
Hayagriva: He writes, "It does not enter men's heads that when they fulfill their duties to men they are performing God's commands and are therefore, in all their actions, so far as they concern morality, perpetually in the service of God, and that it is absolutely impossible to serve God directly in any other way, since they can effect and have an influence upon earthly beings alone and not upon God." He said we can only relate to man. We can only serve man and not serve God directly, but only serve god through man, like a humanitarianism.
Prabhupada: So if he does not serve God, then how he will get direction how to serve the humanity? If he does not know how to serve humanity from God, then what is the value of his service to humanity? (break) ...giving direction that "You serve humanity in this way, by preaching His message, Bhagavad-gita, to all humanity." Then he becomes very faithful servant of God. So to give service to the humanity means when one is a faithful servant of God, he can service to the humanity or to all other living entities, and if he manufactures his service, that is useless.
Hayagriva: Kant writes, "There is only one true religion, but there can be faiths of several kinds. It is therefore more fitting to say, 'This is..., this man is of this or that faith"--Jewish, Muhammadan, Christian, Catholic, Lutheran--'than he is of this or that religion.' "
Prabhupada: Yes, that is going on. Actually, religion means obedience to God. So religion does not mean some sect. They are trying to understand God some way, but that is not actually religion. That is a method of understanding God. But religion begins when one has actually understood God and giving Him, rendering Him service. That is religion.
Hayagriva: For Kant, the true religion is the divine ethical state. He is..., he was fond of quoting the Christian Bible. When Christ was demanded of the Pharisees when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, 'Lo here' or 'Lo there,' for behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Now Kant footnotes this passage by saying, "Here a kingdom of God is represented not according to a particular covenant, but moral, knowable through assisted reason." So again he insists on the priority of God within, on the priority of ethical action and the freedom to accept ethical action. And this is epitomized in his famous line, "The starry sky above and the moral law within." The starry sky above is the abode of God, is very far away, but the moral law within is very close. Thus he emphasizes that the kingdom of God is within you.
Prabhupada: Yes. If one is actually aware of God and His instructions, then the kingdom of God is within himself.
Hayagriva: The Religion Within the Limits of Reason Alone--that is one of his last books--he condemns prayer as an inner formal service to God, because God does not need information regarding the inner disposition of the person offering prayers. In other words, God does not need formal prayer to know what man needs. Such a prayer would be, "Give us this day our daily bread." However, Kant believes that it is good to teach children to pray so that in their early years they may accustom themselves to a life pleasing to God. So that prayer might add their...
Prabhupada: That is religion: how to please God. That is not only restricted among the children, but authorized(?) to the children's father. One must know how to please God. That is real religion.
Hayagriva: He rejects temple attendance, church-going as a means to salvation. He says, "Sensuous representations of God are contrary to the command of reason. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image." So he would reject...
Prabhupada: If somebody imagines...
Hayagriva: ...Deity worship.
Prabhupada: ...some image, that is not required. But if a, actually just like you keep the photograph of your beloved, that is not image. Image is imagination. But when you keep the photograph of your beloved, that is not imagination, that's a fact.
Hayagriva: When you keep a photograph...
Prabhupada: Of your beloved.
Hayagriva: Beloved.
Prabhupada: That is not imagination; that is fact.
Hayagriva: So that is all. (end)
Philosophy Discussions FICHTE.HAY
Johann Gottlieb Fichte
Hayagriva: This is Fichte. He's not as important as Kant or Hegel, but he followed pretty much in the footsteps of Kant. His first work was entitled Our Belief in a Divine Government of the Universe, and he writes, "Our belief in a moral world order must be based on the concept of a supersensible transcendental world."
Prabhupada: But thing is that what is morality? If he cannot define what is morality, simply saying on moral principles, what is this morality? First of all you have to understand what is morality. Simply imaginary moral principle. We want practical understanding what is morality. That they have not defined.
Hayagriva: Not, not specifically.
Prabhupada: Then what is immoral? Everyone will say this is morality. Just like we say, following the Vedic scripture, we say krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam, go-raksya, to give protection to the cows. So according to the scripture we would say it is morality, and somebody will say no, killing a cow in some religious place, mosque or synagogue, this is morality. So which one is morality?
Hayagriva: Well he, following Kant, he emphasized inner reality...
Prabhupada: He may, he may follow Kant and I may follow Krsna, but if there is contradiction, then which one is morality? How it will be decided, and who will decide? He may follow somebody. That this question I asked Professor Kotovsky in Moscow, that "You are following Communism, and we are following, say, Krsna-ism, but your leader is Lenin and our leader is Krsna, that so far the philosophy is concerned we have to accept a leader." So there is no difference in the basic principle of philosophy that we must have a leader. Now who shall be the leader and who will decide it? Regards to both of us, we have got a leader. Now which leader is perfect? If both of them are perfect, then why there is difference of opinion--one leader does not agree with the other leader? So who will answer this question that who is the best leader? Leader you have to follow. That you cannot avoid. Either you follow Kant or you follow Krsna. Either you follow Lenin or you follow Krsna. What is the answer? Who is the perfect leader? You cannot avoid leader, either you say according to Kant, I say according to Krsna.
Hayagriva: Well they both emphasize intuition or conscience. The interior...
Prabhupada: The conscience is prepared. If you go on drinking, then your conscience will say it is good, and if you go on chanting, your conscience will say this is good. The conscience is prepared according to association. There is no standard conscience.
Hayagriva: No standard conscience or intuition.
Prabhupada: So which one will you follow?
Hayagriva: They seem to think there is a standard within everyone.
Prabhupada: So what is that standard? We say the order of Krsna is standard. That's all. What Krsna says, that is standard, that we have got some standard. Unless there is standard, you say conscience, high sense, morality... What is that? Define it. Just like we have got definition of God. I think nobody has got any definition of God. What is the standard that a person should be called God? I don't think... it is only in Vedic literature.
aisvaryasya samagrasya
viryasya yasasah sriyah
jnana-vairagyayos caiva
sannam iti bhaga ingana
Clear. What is religion? Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam. This is the definition of God, and dharma means the order of God. Everything is standard. What is their standard conception? And if you have no standard conception, simply imaginary morality, imaginary controller, imaginary God, how it will help us?
Hayagriva: For Fichte the world has no objective reality outside of its being an instrument for the enactment of morality. He calls the world of the senses "the stuff of duty."
Prabhupada: This is all vague. There is no definite direction.
Hayagriva: He says our duty is revealed in the world of the senses. There's no definition of duty as such.
Prabhupada: That means I can manufacture my own duty, you can manufacture your own duty. There is no standard. But our standard is, Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam sar..., whatever you, rascal, whatever you have manufactured, give it up. The Bhagavata says that dharmah projjhita atra kaitavah, that all cheating type of religious system is kicked out. Here is the religious system, satyam param dhimahi. What is that satyam? Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. Everything is clear. And where is that clear understanding? Simply speculating. That is the difference, the Vedic standard knowledge and this speculative philosophy. So, so far we are concerned, we refer to the Vedas, sabdah pramanam. Sabdah means Vedas, sabdah brahman. So whatever action we do, if it is approved by the Vedic injunction then it is standard and confirmed.
Hayagriva: Now duty, we get back to the same thing. He writes, "True atheism consists in refusing to obey the voice of one's conscience until one thinks one can foresee the success of one's actions, and thus elevating one's own judgment above that of God and in making oneself into God. He who wills to do evil in order to produce good is a godless person."
Prabhupada: Now if you do not know what is God, then how you will verify your duty is nice, all-good? What is the order of God, who is God, then where is your duty? You simply manufacture your duty. So everyone can do that. So what do you mean by duty? Duty means the order given by some superior and you follow, you do it. That is duty. But if you have no superior order, if you have no conception who is the superior, what is his order, then where is your duty? Simply by mental imagination. Is it? Does he say it like that?
Hayagriva: Well, for him, outside of one's duty...
Prabhupada: So what is one's duty?
Hayagriva: Yes, well...
Prabhupada: That he does not know.
Hayagriva: No, that is not...
Prabhupada: So that is a useless, because everyone will say, "This is my duty." So who has given him the duty?
Hayagriva: But it's ambiguous in this way. It says, "Outside the enactment of duty we can not know anything else of God."
Prabhupada: So what is that, I am asking, what is your duty? We have got definite duty. We divide the whole human society into division. That is called varnasrama-dharma. Socially, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, and spiritually, brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Now the..., it is so that whatever you are doing, you must do it in one of these eight principles. So there are eight principles; there are duties. So if you act accordingly to the position, say grhastha, you have got a position, or a sannyasa, you have got a position So sannyasi means this; grhastha means this. So if you follow that principle, then you are doing duty. But if you have no standing, then what is your duty? That is very common sense. If you go to work in a big office, so the master of the office gives you duty, "You do this. You are dispatcher." Or "You are clerk, you are this, you are...," then it is duty. And the, if you engage, go to the office, now "Simply let me do my duty," so "What is my duty? Shall I sit down on the clerk's bench or on the superintendent bench, or on the What is my duty?" Duty must be given, that "This is your duty." Where is that desig..., er, indication?
Hayagriva: It's not in here.
Prabhupada: So then what is duty?
Hayagriva: He says, "Our knowledge of God arises from the enactment of our duty."
Prabhupada: So what is your duty? That God must be giving you the duty, "You do this," then you understand God; you know your duty. But if you have no conception of God, then where is your duty?
Hayagriva: Well duty, one's duty...
Prabhupada: These are vague philosophy.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: Not philosophy. It is simply ambiguous speculation, that's all.
Hayagriva: He was also ambiguous when it came to a personal Deity, but he seemed to lean toward impersonalism.
Prabhupada: We shall see impersonalism. First of all impersonalism, if you stick to impersonal, then there is no specific understanding of the master who is giving you duty.
Hayagriva: He looks on the attribution of personality to God as simply a multiplication of one's self in his thoughts.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but where is the leadership of impersonal understanding? Is there any leadership, impersonal understanding?
Hayagriva: Well he feels that if you attribute personality to God, you're simply...
Prabhupada: I am not attributing. God cannot be attributed! That is a false concept. I cannot manufacture God by giving my imaginary attributes. That is not God.
Hayagriva: Well he feels that if you attribute personality to God, you are simply projecting yourself onto God.
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: This is what he is saying.
Prabhupada: He is saying, but it is not... Even if you attribute, it must be sensual. Just like, full of sense, just like we say "God is great." So at least we have got conception of greatness, so that must be in God. So we suppose a person very big, at least at the present moment if one is very rich. So then my attribution to God that He is the supreme richest person. That is quite reasonable. If we say God is the supreme wise, that is quite reasonable. So this definition given by Parasara Muni, that aisvaryasya samagrasya, that is perfect. Unless one is the richest of all, how can be the great? We have got some conception of greatness, so even if we attribute all the conception of great, that must be God. That is a reasonable definition. Everyone goes to pray to God, "Give us our daily bread." But if He is a poor man, then how can He supply bread? And everyone is praying, "God has to be kind to everyone to supply bread," so He must be very rich. Otherwise how He can supply bread? This is quite reasonable. If everyone comes to me to ask something, so I must be able to supply that thing. Otherwise how can I be God?
Hayagriva: But again he feels, like the others, that if you apply personality to God or if you look on God as a person you necessarily refer to someone who is limited and finite.
Prabhupada: No. That is his mistake. He, he is thinking God is like himself, as he is finite. That is Dr. Frog.
Hayagriva: Yes, he says...
Prabhupada: That, if there is water, that water is this well. How can there be more than this? And maybe big well, that's all. But that is his conception. So this conception will not help. You cannot create God. Just like we have got God, Krsna. As soon as there was necessity to give protection to the inhabitants of whole Vrndavana, the torrents of rain, and it requires a big umbrella, and immediately He lifted the whole mountain: "Come on, under this, let Me see how long this torrents of rain go on. I shall hold." That is God. He... So He was seven-years-old boy. He was not a meditation God. Nowadays that the rascals are becoming God by meditation. What is meditation God? God is always God. Does it require meditation to become God? There are all these rascals, they are preaching, "You meditate and you become God. You think that 'I am moving the sun, I am moving the earth, I am...' " This is rascaldom. But Krsna, He is not that kind of God. He is always God. Now it is necessary, "All right. Lift this." This is God. Aisvaryasya samagrasya viryasya. Whole strength is there to lift the mountain. That is God.
Hayagriva: He doesn't bring in meditation. He feels...
Prabhupada: There are others...
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: ...they say that meditation you become God. That meditation can make, manufacture God?
Hayagriva: Well his, his impersonalist stand leads toward pantheism.
Prabhupada: This is also kind of meditation, speculating that "God should be like this." What is that? But they cannot define what is that, this.
Hayagriva: He says, "The concept of God as a separate substance is impossible and contradictory."
Prabhupada: God is everything. There is no question of separation. That is defined in the Bhagavad-gita, maya tatam idam sarvam, "I am everything." So how He can be separate?
Hayagriva: But he rejects God as a separate person.
Prabhupada: He may reject, but God is everything. How he can reject God? The, the, these are the defects of speculators. They cannot give us tangible leading. That because they are defective themselves, so whatever interpretation they will give, all defective.
Hayagriva: Oh, he would agree that God is everything.
Prabhupada: That God is..., how he can reject? If God is everything, then how can he reject?
Hayagriva: But he would not say that God is more than the creation.
Prabhupada: So how everything He can create? You cannot create the Pacific Ocean, but Pacific Ocean is God. So you are limited, why you are trying to create God? God is already there. Everything is God. Maya tatam idam sarvam. Sarvam khalv idam brahma. How he can reject God? Because the table is God, table is God and table is staying on God... The same example: the earthen pot is also earth and it is kept on earth. So earth both of them are. The earthen pot, a tumbler, and waterpot made of earth, everything is made of earth. This table is made of earth and it is staying on earth. So what you can reject?
Hayagriva: But he rejects God's transcendental nature, and when you...
Prabhupada: That thing is that everything is God, just I have given the example. The floor is God, the table is God. Now which you can reject?
Hayagriva: He wouldn't disagree with that.
Prabhupada: Then where is the rejection of God?
Hayagriva: He would reject the transcendental personality.
Prabhupada: Then as soon as you accept that everything is God, what you can reject?
Hayagriva: The transcendental personality separate from the creation.
Prabhupada: Transcendental also God. As soon as you say everything is God, then that, what you call transcendental, and not transcendental, that is also God. Then how you can reject? If everything is God, how you can reject anything? Sarvam khalu idam brahma. There is no question of... The same example: if everything is made of earth, then where is the question of? My body is also earth. So what you can reject? That is our philosophy. We don't reject. We see God in everything. Isavasyam idam sarvam. That is intelligence. And Rupa Goswami said that prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah, that there is everything is related with God. If we think, "This is matter, this is spirit," that is my speculation. That we have to see how God is there and how everything... Material means when you forget God. That is material.
Hayagriva: Yet we concentrate on the personality of Krsna.
Prabhupada: But that is..., that requires little brain. Those who are less intelligent or those practically no brain, simply cow dung, for them it is little difficult. Therefore this Krsna consciousness movement is to cleanse this cow dung and make the brain pure. Then he will understand. Otherwise he is thinking God, "A person like me." But God is not like that. God is goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto. He is person. He is in Vrndavana, Goloka Vrndavana, He is dancing with gopis, playing with the cowherd boys--still He is everywhere. Not that "Now I am dancing I have no time to go everywhere." That is not. He may be engaged in dancing, but still He is everywhere, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-de... Now if He is in Goloka Vrndavana only, a person like us, then how He can say that patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya? We are offering some dates to Krsna, so He is in Goloka Vrndavana, He may say, "I am now busy. How can I go to your temple and eat?" No. He is also temple, in the temple also. That is God. He is everywhere. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto. This is definition, akhilatma-bhuto. So he has no conception of God. He cannot imagine God. He must take the understanding... (break) ...because they have no standard knowledge. Everyone is manufacturing, so then there must be difference, because everyone is imperfect. You propose something imperfect, I propose something imperfect, so there must be disagreement.
Hayagriva: Oh, he says, "Without action, knowledge has no meaning. Not merely to know but acting according to your knowledge is your vocation, not for idle contemplation of yourself."
Prabhupada: Yes. We...
Hayagriva: "Know for action you are here. Your action and your action alone determines your worth."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is our Krsna consciousness movement, that we are meant for rendering service to Krsna. So we do it daily from morning, four o'clock, to night, ten o'clock, they are always engaged to give service to Krsna. So this is practical. If you simply sit down, speculate on God and smoke cigarette, then what is the use of such speculation? Here is practical life.
Hayagriva: Well in this sense Fichte is closer to Krsna consciousness than most impersonalists, because most impersonalist advocate inaction and meditation on the void, but, uh...
Prabhupada: No, impersonalist...
Hayagriva: ...but how can you have action without action directed toward a person or toward...?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like here in India, impersonalist, they have got also action. Just like the Mayavadis, they have also the same principle. The Sankaracarya is teaching vairagya, "Sit down under the tree, take thrice bath," so many vairagya instruction. Rather, their instruction are more difficult than Vaisnava. So vaivagya-vidya's teaching. Ours is also, Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught by His personal example. There is no question of inaction, sitting idly and gossiping about God imagination. Even an impersonalist or personalist, they are fully engaged. Just like the impersonalist in India, they are reading Vedanta-sutra, they are trying to understand. They are not idle.
Hayagriva: He felt that faith is the basis of action, not knowledge. He felt that knowledge...
Prabhupada: So faith is...
Hayagriva: ...is not sufficient for action.
Prabhupada: Yes. Faith is there. Just like a child, even animals, we have seen in the park the swan... What is called the children of the swan?
Hari-sauri: Cygnets.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: Cygnets.
Prabhupada: Cygnets?
Hayagriva: Cygnets.
Prabhupada: What is the meaning of, the spelling?
Hayagriva: Baby swans.
Hari-sauri: C-y-n-e-t-s. Cygnets.
Prabhupada: Yes. Cygnets?
Hari-sauri: Yeah.
Prabhupada: So we have seen it practically, this big swan is moving and the, they are also moving behind. The big one is jumping with water, and they are also jumping. They do not know where we are jumping, but they are jumping. The mother is swimming and they are swimming. This is natural.
Hayagriva: But in Krsna consciousness isn't knowledge rather than faith the basis for action?
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. They are giving up everything: "Yes, I give up everything." So it's faith, full faith. "Now I shall have to consider whether I shall give up everything and take to Krsna"--that is not faith; that is speculations. Why he should consider? That is explained in the Caitanya-caritamrta. The faith is described, sraddha-sabde visvasa sudrdha niscaya. Faith means believing firmly. And what is that believing firmly? That krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. If you have got faith, then you believe firmly that "Simply by surrendering to Krsna I become perfect." That is faith. If you have still reservation, that is not faith, that is not faith. Here is faith. That faith, how it comes?
bahunam janmanam ante
jnanavan mam prapadyate
vasudevah sarvam iti
sa mahatma su-durlabhah
This faith is not so easy. After many, many births, when one actually becomes a wise man, this faith comes in. Therefore it is said, sa mahatma su-durlabhah. Such kind of mahatma is very rare to be seen, for this faith is not so easy. Na janma-kotibhir labhyate, Rupa Gosvami has said. This faith, sukrtibhih na janma-kotibhir labhyate. Those who are pious, they are candidate, that also requires many, many births to come to this faith. Tatra laulyam eka mulyam na janma-kotibhir sukrtibhih labhyate. So the faith is not so easy thing. Krsna is, from the battlefield of Kuruksetra, five thousand years ago, the Bhagavad-gita is being studied by so many scholars like Gandhi, Dr. Radhakrishnan, Vivekananda, Aurobindo. Where is that faith, sarva-dharman parityajya mam? They are taking advantage of Bhagavad-gita and pleading their own philosophy. And where is that faith? They never taught that "You surrender unto Krsna." Perhaps this is the first time. Of course, the Vaisnava teaching us like that, but we, this Krsna consciousness movement, we are teaching this, that "You catch up Krsna." They have no faith and they are teaching Bhagavad-gita. This is their only... They have no faith in Krsna and they are preaching about Krsna, they are studying Bhagavad-gita. This nonsense is going on. They have no faith. They do not believe in the words of Krsna. Faithless preachers, rascals, and these yogis, swamis, they are preaching Bhagavad-gita. So this is a nice point, that faith is the beginning, but they have no faith. Then where is the beginning?
Hayagriva: The foundation.
Prabhupada: Foundation is lost, and what is the use of big building? Any, anywhere you go, even the Christians, they have no faith in the words of Christ. That I point out every time, that Christ says, "Thou shalt not kill," and their only business is killing. Where is faith? The Ten Commandments, that is Christ's word. Who has faith in these Ten Commandments? Then where is Christian? This is going on.
Hayagriva: For Fichte, faith is innate in all men. He says, "So has it been with all men who have ever seen the light of the world. Without being conscious of it, they apprehend all the reality which has an existence for them through faith alone."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "This faith forces itself on them simultaneously with their existence."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "It is born with them. How could it be otherwise?"
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore we should have faith by experience that everything has got some proprietor, so why not the whole cosmic manifestation has proprietor? This is faith. You may not have seen the, who is the proprietor, but it is a question of faith. Everything I see has got a proprietor or owner, so who is the owner of this whole cosmic manifestation? This depends on faith. You may not have seen it. One says, "Who is that God? I don't see any proprietor." Then wherefrom it comes? "Ah, by accident." Is that any explanation? That is faith, that as everything has got some proprietor or some manufacturer, so why not this whole cosmic manifestation a proprietor? But you cannot say that "I am proprietor." There is some proprietor. That is faith. Just like we go, strolling in the morning, by the path. The (indistinct) park is part of high government. You know it is the property of the government. That just three yards after there is sea, now who is the proprietor of this sea? If this land is..., proprietor is the high government, now who is the proprietor of the water? There must be somebody. I may not know. That is faith. It is common sense. If the land is the property of somebody, so whose property is the sea? But there must be somebody. That is faith. Common sense. But they have no common sense even.
Hayagriva: Getting back to conscience, that was..., we said was vague, he says, "This voice of my conscience announces to me precisely what I ought to do and what leave undone, in every particular situation of life. It accompanies me, if I but will listen to it with attention, through all the events of my life, and never refuses me my reward when I am called upon to act. To listen to it, to obey it honestly..."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "...and unob..."
Prabhupada: So that means he wants to listen somebody's dictation. That is, as soon as you say "listen," then somebody is speaking, you listen. So that is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati. God is situated in everyone's heart, and He is dictating. Even He is dictating to the thief that "You are going to steal. It is not good. If you are arrested you will be punished." That dictation is there, but he disobeys the dictation and he steals, commits sin. That is sin. So the dictator is there, we admit that. Krsna, or God, is there within the heart, and He is giving dictation, but you disobey. But if we accept that dictation, then you become devotee. Dictation is already there; otherwise this thief is going to steal at night? Dictation is there that "You don't go at the daytime. You will be captured and be punished." "All right, I shall go at night, when everyone is sleep." So dictation is there. Dictation is there in two ways--from the heart and from the representative. God's representative, saintly person, spiritual master, is dictating, "My dear boy, do not do this; you do this." Outside dictation. And inside dictation. But he is disobeying. Regularly he is disobeying. Then how he can be happy?
Hayagriva: His ultimate goal is to merge into what he calls the universal ego.
Prabhupada: That universal ego, so just like I have got some ego, "I am the husband of my wife," "I am the chief man in my family," "I am the president of the state"--these are egos. But you cannot say that "I am the master of this whole universe." That is false ego.
Hayagriva: So he feels that one can go through the universe assimilating everything, until one finally unifies with the impersonal Absolute.
Prabhupada: Impersonal Absolute means the Absolute, as soon as you say Absolute, there is no distinction between impersonal and personal. Then it is no Absolute. If you have got distinction that "This is personal; this is impersonal," then that is not Absolute. Do you think it is Absolute? It is contradictory.
Hayagriva: Well for, for him, God is simply the universal ego, nothing more, and that...
Prabhupada: No. You say Absolute. As soon as say Absolute there is relative also. Otherwise what is the meaning Absolute?
Hayagriva: Yes. He would say that. He would say that...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...there is the ego and the universal ego.
Prabhupada: So then why he is distinguishing, discriminating between personal and impersonal? In the Absolute there is no such difference. That is defined in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, advaya. That is Absolute. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam. That is Absolute. Dvayam, dvayam means relative. That is not relative. So actually we are searching after the Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth is realized in different ways. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate. The, just like the same example I gave the other day, that from a distant place you are seeing this mountain, something cloudy. You come a little forward, you will see it is green, and if you enter the mountain you will see so many varieties. The one is there, but it is due to my relative understanding by distant or nearer the Absolute is appearing in different way. Absolute is one. That is Absolute. But it is due to my position, qualitative position, we see imperson or all-pervading or Bhagavan. So actually He is Bhagavan. Brahmano aham pratistha. The impersonal feature is standing on Him. Yes. That just like this, this mountain, you see from distance impersonal, but you go to the mountain you will see so many houses, so many persons, so many animals, so many. So because I am looking the Absolute from very distant place, it looks impersonal. Actually it is not. It is my position to see. Although this impersonal is also the Absolute. What you are seeing like vague cloud, this same mountain or the same hill, but... (aside:) Oh, come on. You're feeling little... (end)
Philosophy Discussions HEGEL.HAY
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel
Hayagriva: And, uh, we can go on to Hegel?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He did quite a bit of reading in Indian philosophy, but it seems to be confined to impersonal...,
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...the Upanisads...
Prabhupada: It is simply, Upanisads is just the opposite--spirit is not matter. That is the instruction of Upanisads.
Hayagriva: He writes, "Spirit, in so far as it is the spirit of God, is not a spirit beyond the stars, beyond the world. On the contrary, God is present, omnipresent, and exists as spirit in all spirits. God is a living God who is acting and working. Religion is a product of the divine spirit. It is not a discovery of man but a work of divine operation."
Prabhupada: This is very important thing, that a man cannot manufacture religion. That is very important point. Therefore we say religion means the words, the order given by God. Just like Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya: "You have manufactured so many religious systems. You give up, kick it out. It has no value. Here is religion." And in the beginning He said, dharma-samsthapanarthaya: "I have appeared to re-establish the principle of religion." And He says at last that "Give up. Kick out all this so-called religion. Here is religion." What is that? Mam ekam saranam...: "You just surrender to Me." This is religion. And Bhagavata says, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam: "The order given by God, that is religion." Otherwise, everything is bogus. It has no meaning. The same example: law means which is given by the government. You cannot say, "I have prepared the law." Who will care for you? Even the small law, "Keep to the right," that is religion. If you say, "What is the law? If they keep to the left..." No. That will not be accepted. "Keep to the right" is religion, and "Keep to the left" is criminal. So religion is pious and impious--everything on the order of Krsna, or God. If you follow strictly the instruction of Krsna, then you are religious, pious, transcendental, devotee, everything. And if you defy Krsna, you manufacture your own way, then you are rascal, asura. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah. He is naradhamah. This is the way. Less than the mankind, naradhamah, who do not follow the instruction of Krsna, or God.
Hayagriva: He writes, "The lifting of the spirit to God occurs in the innermost regions of spirit upon the basis of thought. Religion as the innermost affair of man has here its center and the root of its life. God is in his very essence thought and thinking, however His image and configuration be determined otherwise."
Prabhupada: His image, if God is absolute, His image is also God. If God is absolute, then His words are also God. That is absolute conception. That iw not different. So the image which we worship in the temple, if it is actually image of God, then it is as good as God. God is absolute. God says that "This earth, water..., so everything is My energy." So even if you say, "This image is made of stone," but the stone is God's energy, bhumi, earth. So there is a regulative principle, just like a wire, a copper wire, it is carrying electricity. Although the copper wire is not electricity, but it is carrying electricity. Similarly, if you take even material--otherwise spiritually everything is God, that is another thing--but materially if we distinguish that the copper wire, it appears as copper wire, but if you touch, "Oh, there is electricity." So it is manipulated. Similarly, by the rules and regulation as enunciated by the experienced spiritual master and guru, then even if you think it is stone, it is God. The same example, you see it is electric wire, but it is electricity. Similarly, arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matih. It is..., this has been warned: don't think that this sila, stone. Is God. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, as soon as saw Jagannatha, immediately fainted. So we have to be trained up by the instruction of God how to realize God everywhere.
Hayagriva: Hegel considered history and theodicy to be integral. He looks on history as a justification of God, and he rejects the Vedic conception of history because he doesn't see it unfolding any particular meaning. That is, universes are created, maintained and annihilated in an apparently meaningless way. For Hegel, history has to tell the story of man's elevation to God. Apart from the history of man, God would be alone and lifeless. God seems to depend on human history. God is not transcendental but is manifest in the world.
Prabhupada: But if He is dependent on history, how He is God? This is nonsense proposal. (laughing) He is dependent on history!
Hayagriva: Doesn't the history of mankind necessarily...
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, God is independent, satandhara (?). Janmady asya yatah anvayad itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah svarat. Svarat, independent. He does not depend on anything; still He is God. That is God. If He is dependent on anything, then He is not God.
Hayagriva: But does the history of man necessarily make any sense? He saw it as progressing, as man, here again is evolution...
Prabhupada: As soon as there is creation there is history, from the very beginning, that this is the point of creation and it will go on, history, until it is ended. Just like as soon as you are born, your horoscope is made, the history. Now throughout your whole life there are so many activities, and after, we also believe next life the history continues. But superficially we make history from the beginning to the end of this body, that's all. But God is not subject to such rule that "God is created at a certain point and He is ended at a certain point." Then where is the question of history? There is no history. History is for the small things. For me there is past, present, future. For God there is no such thing as past, present, future. So where is the history? History means past, present, future.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: But God has no past, present, future. So where is history? It is all nonsense. He does not know what is the meaning of God.
Hayagriva: Hegel placed a great deal of emphasis on human freedom.
Prabhupada: There is no freedom. That is another nonsense.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: (laughs) He is subjected to birth, death, old age. Where is his freedom? That is another nonsense.
Hayagriva: He accuses the Orientals, mainly the Indians... He says, "The Orientals do not know that the spirit is free in itself or that man is free in himself. Because they do not know it, they are not free."
Prabhupada: But is he free? Why he died? The Orientals he is accusing. Why he died? This is their nonsense speculation.
Hayagriva: He says, "They only know that the one"--that is, the one Brahman--"is free; therefore such freedom is only arbitrary."
Prabhupada: Then why he says that the human being should be free?
Hayagriva: He says this one, supreme one, is therefore a despot, not a free man, not a man. Only the Germanic nations have in and through Christianity achieved the consciousness that man as man is free and that freedom of the spirit constitutes his very nature. This consciousness arose first in religion and the innermost region of spirit.
Prabhupada: Christian religion is that the man either goes to heaven or goes to hell. So he has got the freedom either go to hell or go to heaven. This freedom he has got. But who gives him hell or heaven? He has got the freedom to make choice, but when he is going to hell, then where is his freedom? That where is the distinction between hell and heaven? These are... If he is Christian he should answer that the man is given chance, once, either to go to hell or go to heaven. So all right, if he goes to heaven it is all right. Then if he goes to hell, where is freedom? This common sense also, that every citizen has got the freedom to live as free citizen or to go to the jail, but one who goes to the jail, where is freedom? And who gives him the chance of free citizenship or prisoner's life? Therefore his freedom is dependent on somebody, higher principle, who gives him chance to remain free or go to prison. That God is the supreme controller. He gives the living entity freedom to make his choice, either go to hell or go to heaven, but he is not completely free as God is free.
Hayagriva: He says the grandeur of Indian religion and poetry as well as Indian philosophy have been acknowledged especially in their rejection and sacrifice of the senses. Now his conception is typical nineteenth century...
Prabhupada: He has no study of the Vedic literature; still he poses himself to remark on the Vedic literature. That is his ignorance.
Hayagriva: He considers the goal of Indian philosophy to be spiritual as well as physical extinction. Nirvana.
Prabhupada: Physical extinction, everyone says that--even Christian religion says--you go to hell, go to heaven. So who goes to heaven? Who goes to heaven? What is the qualification? Reasonably, one who has given up this physical.
Hayagriva: He says spiritual extinction as well as physical, nirvana.
Prabhupada: But then he has no idea what is spiritual. Spiritual is eternal, na hanyate hanyamane sarire. How does it, spiritually... Spirit is also annihilated, then where is the difference between matter and spirit? Imperfect knowledge. And still they are big philosopher. Scanty knowledge.
Hayagriva: He sees the religion of India as a religion in which man is handed laws from a God who is exterior to man, from a will that is entirely foreign to man. And he sees this to be opposed to what he considers to be a more advanced religion, in which the individual soul is lifted to the supernatural through the use of reason, internal sanction or subjective confirmation. In other words, he sees the Indian religion as being blind following of an exterior will. He says that man can only attain God through the exercise of his own free will.
Prabhupada: Then why the animals cannot? Animal is given complete free will.
Hayagriva: He says animals have no will.
Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. If he has no will, why he goes to different direction?
Hayagriva: He says that animals have no right to life because they have no will.
Prabhupada: Just see. What is the symptom of life? First of all settle up, how do you know? We can distinguish that this table has no life, that a small ant on the table there is life. How you distinguish, that here is life, there is no life? Then what is the symptom of life? If the symptom of life is there in animal, there is life. Why they will say there is no life? What is the philosophy? There is life. He is eating; you are eating. He is sleeping; you are sleeping. He is having sex; you are having sex. He is also afraid of enemy; you are also afraid. Then why do you say that you have life, he has no life? What is the symptom of life? This is the primary symptom of life. So if he has got these primary symptoms of life, how do you say he has no life? That means you have no intelligence even.
Hayagriva: He associates religion with...
Prabhupada: As this table has no life, because the table does not require to eat, the table does not require to sleep... But another thing, a small ant, he is hankering after "Where is a little sugar?" hankering, eating. That is life.
Hayagriva: He would see that as instinct.
Prabhupada: So what is nonsense instinct? The man has got these symptoms and the small ant has got these symptoms. That is life. That vague description, and still they are big philosopher. No perfect knowledge.
Hayagriva: He associates religion with art. He says religion represents or pictures the absolute, whereas philosophy conceives or thinks of it.
Prabhupada: Yes. So religion without philosophical basis is sentiment. It has no value.
Hayagriva: And for him, God is necessarily manifest in the finite; therefore he places the incarnation of Christ, the incarnation of God, as central in the Christian religion. That is, in order to be manifest, God has to become finite. God has to become man.
Prabhupada: Then if God is man, if He is taken as man, then why His instruction should be followed?
Hayagriva: Excuse me? Why His instructions...?
Prabhupada: Should be followed? You are man, I am man. Why should you follow my instructions?
Hayagriva: Well he says..., he says you shouldn't, because there's no exterior will to be followed. This is Hegel's philosophy.
Prabhupada: Then if he is godless, God has no use, will. Either he is godless or God has no will. Is it not? Then he is animal, and if he says animal has no will, then God becomes exactly like animal.
Hayagriva: Speaking of the body and the soul, he says "The body, insofar as it is an uncultivated piece of external existence, is inadequate to the spirit. The spirit must first take possession of it in order to make it its animated tool. But in reference to other people, I am essentially free even as to my body. It is but a vain sophistry that says that the real person, the soul, cannot be injured by maltreatment offered to one's body. Violence done to the body is really done to me." Since the body, he says, is the tool of the soul...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...if you injure the body of a person, you are actually injuring the person...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...because you are injuring his property.
Prabhupada: Yes. But why the Christians killing?
Hayagriva: How is that?
Prabhupada: Why the Christians are killing animals?
Hayagriva: Yes. If that's the case, why mistreat the animals, animal bodies?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: The animals have no right to life, he says, because they have no will.
Prabhupada: That is his foolishness. He has got will. When you take to the slaughterhouse, he protests.
Hayagriva: He says, "Mankind has the right of absolute proprietorship. A thing belongs to the accidental first-comer who gets it."
Prabhupada: What accident?
Hayagriva: To... A thing belongs... Or whoever comes first. Say there's a gold mine. If I get there first, it's mine, because I'm the first-comer.
Prabhupada: That means that, then, "Might is right."
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: But gold, they say, if he says gold is there, whose gold it is?
Hayagriva: He says the first-comer...
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all you go and say... First of all you become proprietor. But who is the actual proprietor of the gold, when you did not go? You may go first and claim proprietorship, but the gold was there. So whose property it is? Gold was there. Who made that gold? Who kept that gold? This question must be there.
Hayagriva: He says it's mine because I put my will into it.
Prabhupada: That's all right. It is mine, you have first gone there, accept it. But who kept the gold there? Who made the gold there? And if somebody else made the gold and kept the gold, you go first and capture it, then you are a thief. Is it not? I have kept something there, and somebody comes by says, "It is mine," then he is a thief, because the gold is already there, it's kept by somebody. You did not take his permission; you simply claimed, "Because I have come first, I am the proprietor." You are not proprietor. But if the gold was kept there for taking part of it to enjoy it by everyone, and you take it by might--"I have come here first"--then you are a thief; you are not a philosopher. You have no sense who kept that gold, who manufactured that gold--you do not take his permission. Because you have come first, therefore you become proprietor--then you are not a philosopher; you are thief, ordinary thief. "Might is right," "I have come" philosophy. "Therefore I am proprietor."
Hayagriva: Because I will it to be mine... He says because I come first and will it to be mine, it is mine.
Prabhupada: That's all right. By force you can do that, you are doing that.
Hayagriva: And I can relinquish it because I can will to relinquish it.
Prabhupada: But first thing is that if you have got will, but reasonable will, first of all you have to think, "Who has kept this gold here? I am claiming proprietorship simply by coming here, but who has kept this gold here?" Why don't you think like that? What kind of human being you are?
Hayagriva: A final point: he believed that man should have the freedom to choose his occupation. He writes, "In the Platonic state, subjective freedom was of no account. Since the..."
Prabhupada: That means there are already different occupations, and you have freedom to select one of them. But the occupation is already there, created by somebody else. You have the freedom to make a choice. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, catur-varnyam maya srstam: "I have created these four principles of occupational duties." Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. Now, if according to your qualification you can make a selection, "I, I like this occupation." But the occupation is already there. Just like a shopkeeper, he has got varieties of goods. The customer goes, he can say, "I like this." "All right, you can take it. This is the price." Similarly, the occupational duties are already there. The (indistinct) are already there. That is created by God. Now you can select one of them according to the price you can pay. That is the...
Hayagriva: Not according..., not according to birth?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: Not according to birth?
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: He thinks... He says in many Oriental states this assignment... He says, Hegel, in tle Platonic state, in Plato's Republic, the government assigns each individual his occupation. In Oriental states, in..., for instance in India, he says this assignment results from birth. The subjective choice, which ought to be respected, requires free choice by individuals, and he considers this the basic right.
Prabhupada: No. The thing is just like Bhagavan Krsna said, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. This is going on all over the world. The occupation is that just like engineering occupation. So who can become engineer? Guna-karma, one who has acquired the qualification of engineering profession and is actually acting as engineer. That is wanted. Guna-karma. Krsna never says, "Birth" But later on, because an engineer trains his boy as engineer, so naturally he becomes also engineer. Formerly, as we understand from the history of Ajamila... He was a son of a brahmana, and he was being trained up as a brahmana. That was the system. Not that because he has born in the brahmana family he becomes brahmana. No. He has got the chance of being trained up as brahmana by the brahmana father. So it became later on as caste, by birth, because naturally a brahmana father trains his son to become brahmana. But when the brahmana's son becomes a cobbler, that does not mean he is still brahmana. That we find from the... Tadiya laksanam drsyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiset. If a brahmana's son has become a cobbler, he should be called a cobbler, or a cobbler's son has become a brahmana, he should be called a brahmana. Not by the birth. But it became a qualification of birth because formerly it was easy, because he is dealing with his father and father is brahmana, so automatically, fifty percent he becomes brahmana, and fifty percent by training, then he becomes complete brahmana--by association, by family. So it is not that a cobbler cannot become brahmana if he also acquires the qualification of a brahmana. Narada said, tat tenaiva vinirdiset. If he has already acquired the qualification of brahmana then he should be called a brahmana. Not that a brahmana's sons becomes qualified as a cobbler, tannery expert, and he remains brahmana. That is not. He has no knowledge. That means if you have studied all the Vedic literature, he could not say like that. The injunction is tadiya laksanam drsyeta. The qualification, if you find elsewhere, then he should be designated by the qualification. A doctor's son, instead of taking up the life of medical life, if he becomes engineer, so he should be called engineer, not doctor. Tat tenaiva vinirdiset, it is clearly said. So the, Krsna's plan, that "I have created four divisions according to quality and work," catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma, that is final. One must have the qualification and he must work. If... He must have the brahminical qualification and he must act as a brahmana. Simply theoretical will not do. Just like we are giving sacred thread to a person who is born in low family, but we are training him also to act as a brahmana. Not that you take the sacred thread and go be..., work as cobbler. No. You must be engaged in Deity worship, brahmana's work, business, then you are a brahmana. Otherwise you are not a brahmana.
Hayagriva: In a very often-quoted passage Hegel writes, "God is only God insofar as He knows Himself. His self-knowledge is more over His consciousness of Himself in man and man's knowledge of God, a knowledge that extends itself into the self-knowledge of man in God."
Prabhupada: That, if he accepts that, then why not man takes knowledge of God from God? Then his knowledge is perfect. Why he should speculate?
Hayagriva: He considers man to be essential to God.
Prabhupada: But he, he has accepted God as man...
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: So to possess the knowledge of God, the best duty of man is to take knowledge from God about God. I know myself, that he says, that God knows Himself. So if God knows, that is natural. I know what I am. So if you take knowledge of me from me instead of speculating, that is perfect knowledge. So here, in the Bhagavad-gita, the God is explaining Himself. So if you simply take the knowledge given by God, that is your perfected knowledge of God. Why you are speculating? You are wasting time. Take the knowledge from God about Him, and then you have perfect knowledge. Why should you speculate? Suppose I am studying you, I am speculating, "Well, Hayagriva may be like this, he might have so much money, he might have so much bank balance, he is living like that," this is speculation. But if I say, "Hayagriva, what you are?" you say, "I have got this, I do like this," that is my perfect knowledge. Why shall I speculate?
Hayagriva: Well then you wouldn't be able to write so many books.
Prabhupada: Huh? No. When I have got perfect knowledge, then I can write.
Hayagriva: Then.
Prabhupada: Without perfect, whatever I write, that is nonsense. That is nonsense. That is the difference--parampara system. All these philosophers, they are simply talking nonsense, and whatever we are writing, there is meaning. Why? Because we are studying God from God. This is our perfection. We are not speculating about God. That is the difference. Now we are expanding my knowledge so that you can understand. That is my writing. But my basic principle is that I have understood God from God, not by speculation. That is my qualification. If I know God from God, then my knowledge about God is perfect. Then whatever I write, that is perfect. Therefore Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says, saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair, that therefore all scriptures accept the guru, spiritual master, as directly the Supreme Lord. Why? He does not speak anything nonsense. That is; therefore he is called servitor God. He is serving God, giving the same knowledge as God has given to him; therefore he is perfect. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktas tatha bhavyata eva. So knowledge, if we, if we take God, what is God, if we understand from God, then our knowledge of God is perfect. Simply by speculating you cannot become perfect. That is not possible. So if Mr.Hegel...?
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: He is Hegel now, what? What is his...?
Devotee: Hegel.
Hayagriva: Hegel.
Prabhupada: Ah. So if he accepts God and he inducts a man, the man should take knowledge from God about God. The his knowledge of God is perfect. He should not speculate. And if he has no such source of taking knowledge from God, then his conception of God is also false. If he has got actually the conception of God, then he should take knowledge from God what He is. That is perfect knowledge. He was talking of Oriental knowledge. This is Oriental knowledge: they know who is God and they take knowledge from God about God. But here, Occidental, they speculate about God. What they will know about God? Whatever they speculate, that is imperfect, because he is imperfect.
Hayagriva: He equates idea, reason, God, and the Absolute very much like the Greeks.
Prabhupada: Everything is there, but if you take knowledge from God, then that is perfect, and if you make your own ideas--you do not take the ideas of God--that is imperfect.
Hayagriva: He does say reason is also infinite form, that which sets this material in motion...
Prabhupada: This is, this is, this is real reasoning, that "I am imperfect or limited. How I can speculate on the unlimited? So better let me learn from the unlimited about the unlimited." That is perfect knowledge.
Hayagriva: One final point is that he sees the worship of animals and plants to be a form of pantheism. He refers to Indian religion...
Prabhupada: No. But Indian, that he does not know; still he speaks. That is the most regretful situation.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: If God says that "Amongst the plants I am this plant..."
Hayagriva: Tulasi, Tulasi.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: So the Hindus, they worship, follow God's instruction. That is they have got in a certain sense. God has said that "Amongst the plants, I am this plant, so worship." They are not worshiping all, every plant.
Hayagriva: This isn't..., then this difference from the pantheists, who would worship, say, everything.
Prabhupada: They, they will worship any nonsense, but here it is God consciousness. God has said that "I am this," so "I am...," I will worship. That is God, God consciousness. God has said. He has complete faith in God. Just like pranavah sarva-vedesu: "Of Vedic knowledge I am the omkara." Therefore they follow: om tad visnu paramam para..., every mantra is followed by. How he has known omkara is God? That God has said: pranavah sarva-vedesu. So God is giving instruction how He should be realized. So they are following that. They are realized; they realize actually. And what is the use of speculating? He will never understand God because he is speculating with his limited knowledge. God is unlimited.
Hayagriva: So although God is all animals and all plants...
Prabhupada: Yes, that is...
Hayagriva: Although God is everything, we concentrate on these particular...
Prabhupada: No. That is especially prohibited. Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani: "Everything is in Me, but I am not there." Just like the body of a dog. The body is on the soul; the platform is the soul. Otherwise there is no meaning of the body. So the body of the dog is depending on the soul of the body. But that does not mean the dog's body is God. Naham tesu avasthitah. Find out this verse, mat-sthani sarva-bhutani naham tesu avasthitah. They are taking just as Vivekananda, they, the body of a daridra, poor man, is resting on God, Narayana...
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: ...but he is taking the body as Narayana. That is his knowledge, imperfect. He is saying daridra-narayana. God has become daridra. And he is taking the consideration of the body; therefore he is thinking God has become daridra. The body of a daridra, poor man, is depending on Narayana, but he is taking the body as Narayana. He is such a fool, and he is going on. Ah. Find out...
Devotee:
maya tatam idam sarvam
jagad avyakta-murtina
mat-sthani sarva-bhutani
na caham tesv avasthitah
Prabhupada: Read the purport.
Devotee: Translation. "By Me in My unmanifested form this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them."
Prabhupada: "On service of his origin." What is? On His Majesty's service. What is that slogan?
Devotee: "On His Majesty's service."
Prabhupada: Ah. (indistinct) That does not mean the..., Her Majesty is there. The Majesty, Her Majesty's power, order, is everywhere. Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani. The government is acting with the seed on Majesty's service, but that does not mean Her Majesty is there. This is simultaneously one and different, acintya-bhedabheda. Majesty is there because the order is there, but still personally he is not there. So the, another, that begun already, is that daridra, in daridra Narayana is there, but not that daridra is Narayana. But he has no vision. He is talking of this daridra-narayana. This is mistake. Narayana is there undoubtedly, but not that daridra is Narayana. This is impersonalism, Mayavada mistake. That is pantheism.
Hayagriva: Pantheism. So when Krsna says, "I am sex life according to dharma," then this means that He can be perceived in this way.
Prabhupada: Yes. If you, just like garbhadhana ceremony. That is not a secret thing. That garbhadhana ceremony is that "I am going to beget a child. I am going to have sex with my wife for begetting a Krsna conscious child," so that Krsna is remembered. While having sex, if he remembers, "Krsna, give me a child who will be Your devotee," that is the duty of the father. So this kind of sex is Krsna. And if we have sex for enjoyment, that is not. That is demonic. That is the, Krsna says...
Hayagriva: But Krsna is present nonetheless.
Prabhupada: Krsna is always present, but if when you hold a ceremony, garbhadhana ceremony, that "I am going to have sex with my wife for begetting a Krsna conscious child," then you remember Krsna. And at the time of sex, the mentality of the father and mother, that is acquired by the child. There is rules and regulation for garbhadhana ceremony, and in the Bhagavata you will find that as soon as a..., the..., one gives up the garbhadhana ceremony, he is a sudra. So who is observing this garbhadhana ceremony at the present moment? Therefore everyone is sudra. Kalau sudra-sambhavah. Everyone is born as sudra. The father and mother gave birth as sudra. So this birthright of brahmana is no longer in this day. Even they falsely claim, "Because I am born of a brahmana father I am brahmana," that sastra will not support. Whether garbhadhana ceremony was performed? And nowadays, especially, who knows that he is son of a brahmana? The woman is intermingling with everyone, and who has given birth of the child? Whether he is actually a brahmana's son, a sudra's son, who knows it? So how he can claim, by birthright, a brahmana? That is not possible. Therefore everyone is sudra. But he can be trained as a brahmana. That is pancaratriki-vidhi. We are following this pancaratriki-vidhi, not Vedic vidhi. Vedic vidhi is different. Pancaratriki. By training. He has got little tendency, little fire, to become Krsna conscious. All right, fan it, make the fire bigger than this. But if he gives up the firing process, he remains fire, but he will go unfinished. (Sanskrit), that a small seed, you sow it and regularly pour water... Just like Govinda dasi introduced this Tulasi. She is responsible for introducing Tulasi in the Western countries.
Hayagriva: So the Tulasi, the actual... To get back to the original point, the actual philosophy behind reverence for the Tulasi plant or the cow or the sexual ceremony, the basis then would be remembrance of Krsna, that these can bring remembrance of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Because Krsna says so, but...
Prabhupada: Just like Krsna says satatam cintayantam mam: "Always thinking of Me," that is the process of consciousness, Krsna consciousness. Satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto. "Always think of Me." So somehow or other you think of Krsna, then you will become Krsna conscious, purified.
Hayagriva: But you shouldn't think of Krsna in any..., in another way, for instance a palm tree or...
Prabhupada: (indistinct) Then He is giving indication that "Amongst the trees I am this." So you take it.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: Just like Krsna said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. He said that "I am the taste of the water." So you are drinking water always. The taste which quenches your thirst and you feel satisfaction, that is Krsna. Now if you follow Krsna's instruction, "Now I am drinking water. Now I am feeling satisfaction. Now this satisfaction is Krsna," then you remember Him.
Hayagriva: Hegel mistook this for pantheism.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: Hegel mistook this for pantheism.
Prabhupada: He has mistaken in so many ways. (Sanskrit) Just like our... Not Pradyumna. If somebody has boils all over the body, then where it will be operated? Better kill this body. (laughing) So he has got so many boils, this Hegel and Segel, all, because they are speculators. They have no definite knowledge. Speculators cannot have definite knowledge. Therefore our Professor Dimmock has said, "Here is definite definition of Gita." What is that? Just see. Then it is so. He has appreciated it. You cannot see, of the...
Devotee: They only put two lines of what he said in there. He says this...
Prabhupada: Yes. That is his word.
Devotee: Oh.
Prabhupada: Read it all.
Devotee: "Definitive English edition of Bhagavad-gita. By bringing us a new and living interpretation of the text already known to many, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has increased our own understanding manyfold."
Prabhupada: That is a definite, not vague, speculative. That is the difference between my translation and others. Therefore I have given the name "As It Is." So we will be no spoke or speculation. As soon as you speculate, you are rejected. Therefore others are seeing some danger that "This Bhaktivedanta's..., this Bhagavad-gita As It Is accepted, then where we are?"
Hayagriva: Everybody wants to speculate.
Prabhupada: That's all. We are, I have stopped it. They cannot speculate on the words of Bhagavad-gita. That is our mission. Won't allow you to speculate. You are finite, imperfect. How you can by speculation give the unlimited, infinite? How it is possible? That is reasonable. Waste of time, misleading others. Andha yathandair upaniyamanah. You are blind; how you can show others, blind men? They are already blind. You open your eyes, then take the leadership of the blind. Ajnana-timirandhasya jnananjana-salakaya. That is our process. That's all right. (end)
Philosophy Discussions SCHOP.HAY
Arthur Schopenhauer
Hayagriva: This is Schopenhauer. For Schopenhauer happiness is inactive satisfaction, inactivity, nirvana. The will to live is the irrational urge...
Prabhupada: What does he give..., what does he explain about the nirvana? What?
Hayagriva: The will to live is the irrational urge that brings about all suffering. And his is a philosophy of extinction. Now in his first book, The World Is Idea, he ascribes to the philosophy of maya, like a Mayavadi. He writes, "The Vedas and Puranas have no better simile than a dream for the whole knowledge of the actual world, which they call the web of maya, and they use none more frequently." From this Schopenhauer concludes that life is a long dream. "What is this world of perception besides being my idea? Is that of which I am conscious only as idea exactly like my own body, of which I am doubly conscious, in one aspect as idea, in another aspect as will?" So from this he concludes that life is a projection of the will.
Prabhupada: This material life?
Hayagriva: Material life is a projection of the will.
Prabhupada: Yes, he has read it. It is taken from Indian... It is called vasana. Vasana means desire. So that desire, material desire, but the living entity cannot be desireless. Desireless..., nirvana means material desires finished. But because living entity is eternal spiritual being, he is, he has got spiritual desire. Now it is covered. The desire is there, desire is constant companion, but because it is materially covered, we are thinking this temporary world as reality, and it is not reality; therefore it is changing. We are having different types of desires according to the body we get, and the soul is transmigrating in this material world from one body to another, and he is creating a certain type of desires, will. And to fulfill that will he is getting a different type of body by the Supreme Will. He is willing, and the Supreme Will, God, Krsna, understanding his will, giving him facility to accept a certain pattern of circumstances, body, to fulfill his particular desire. That is going on. Therefore this vasana, or will, is the cause of his material existence, constantly changing, and on account of changing will he is changing body. This is the complication of material existence. Our Krsna consciousness movement is to teach the living entity that as living being you must have desires. If your desires are stopped, then you become like stone. So you have to cleanse this desire, diseased form of desire. That is bhakti. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam. Now the desires are according to the upadhi, according to the body. A man gets the body of American, he thinks, "America is my home. American nation, they are my brother. American upliftment is my business," so on, so on. And as soon as it is changed, you are Chinese man, again he thinks, "I am Chinese." Tatha dehantara-praptih. He has to change. He has got the material body of a dog, he is barking, "I am dog. This is my business, to bark." So this is all desires. So these desires are temporary. By one desire I get one body, then I desire another body, another body, it is going. So therefore in one sense it is dream, that factually he cannot fulfill the desires, like dream. Yes. There are so many different circumstances. They are all temporary. So this, at night you dream, it is say for one hour or two hour. We..., nobody sees one kind of dream for two hours. Say even two hours, then finished, then another dream. So this change of body is also like a big dream. At night we dream, we forget everything about daily activities, and again when the dream is finished, again we come to this body and we do some things. So in that sense all material activities, subtle or gross, they are manifestation of different desires. Therefore the Mayavadi philosophers, they say brahma satyam jagan mithya. The dreamer is fact, but the dream is false. That is one sense it is right. So our Vaisnava philosophy is the same, that the dreamer is the living entity and the dream is temporary. Therefore the dreamer has to be brought to the real, spiritual platform so that these material dreams, either in day or night, they can be extinguished. That is nirvana.
sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam
tat-paratvena nirmalam
hrsikena hrsikesa-
sevanam bhaktir ucyate
When we give up these dreaming facts and come to the real fact, that is Krsna consciousness, that is bhakti. So activities in Krsna consciousness, called bhakti, that is reality.
Hayagriva: Schopenhauer writes, "Every keen pleasure is an error and an allusion, for no attached wish can give lasting satisfaction."
Prabhupada: That is...
Hayagriva: "And moreover, every possession and every happiness is but lent by chance for an uncertain time..."
Prabhupada: Mm.
Hayagriva: "...and may therefore be demanded back the next hour. All pain rests on the passing away of such allusion. Thus both arise from defective knowledge."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "The wise man therefore holds himself equally aloof from joy and sorrow, and no event disturbs his composure."
Prabhupada: The other day, yesterday, I was explaining that this side good, this side bad, the same thing. Stool is stool. So this side or that side. But here in this material world, they are accepting this temporary or false, whatever you call, platform, and we are manufacturing in that false platform, temporary platform, "This is good, this is bad." Why? Where is the good and bad? They are all temporary, or false. We don't say false; we say temporary. The Mayavadi philosopher, they say false. So that is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita, that the pains and pleasure of this material world, it is experienced by the (indistinct). The spirit soul does not touch this. It is different. He is not concerned with this material, but he is illusioned that "This pains and pleasure is mine." Therefore Krsna advises in the Bhagavad-gita that this pains and pleasures, simply touching the skin, body. But I am not this body. That is the first instruction. The soul is not this body; therefore this pains and pleasure is on account of this body, material body. So Krsna said,
matra-sparsas tu kaunteya
sitosna-sukha-duhkha-dah
agamapayinah anityah
tams titiksasva bharata
So these are not reality. They come and go in due course, and we are, being too much absorbed in this material body, we feel pains and pleasure. But I am not this body; therefore one should be intelligent, that "This pains and pleasure is due to my bodily concept of life, and they come and go. Why should I bother about it? If I feel pain, let me tolerate and do my own business." That's all.
Hayagriva: Schopenhauer's second book was entitled The World Is Will. He writes, "My body is the objectivity of my will. Besides will and idea, nothing is known to us or thinkable. But if we narrowly analyze the reality of this body and its actions, we find nothing in it except the will." And he goes on to state that "The genitals are properly the focus of the will, and consequently the opposite pole of the brain, which is the representative of knowledge. The former, that is the genitals, are the life sustaining principle and share an endless life to time. In this respect they were worshiped by the Greeks in the phallus and by the Hindus in the lingam, which are thus the symbol of the assertion of the will. Knowledge, on the other hand, affords the possibility of the suppression of willing, of salvation through freedom, of conquest and annihilation of the world."
Prabhupada: Therefore that is bhakti. Sarvopadhi, this willing... Why? This willing is (indistinct), because this willing is according to the body. So I get one body and will again, we get another body. So I am willing, but I am. So I have now identified with this willing situation. That is my trouble. When I understand that I have nothing to do with this material world, with this, the production of my will, material will, and I am spiritual, so when I will spiritually, that is Krsna consciousness. That is wanted. Materially willing means I get different types of body, that's all. That is dream life. But what he says?
Hayagriva: Well, he sees that the basis of life is sex.
Prabhupada: He has to...
Hayagriva: That this, that the will is asserted mainly due to sex.
Prabhupada: Yes. So that is material life.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is material life. That we say always that yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham. Here, those who are addicted to material world, their basic principle is maithuna, sex intercourse. So this strong desire for sex, that will continue so long you are in the material existence, because that is the center of all pleasure. But when we get taste of Krsna pleasure we can give up this. Param drstva nivartate. By same superior pleasure they give up this inferior.
Hayagriva: Well as, as to the nature of the world, Schopenhauer is vague, but he sees material life as basically irrational and whimsical.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact. Therefore you are changing body. Material mind is not fixed up; rejecting and accepting. This is going on. That Mayavada philosophers say as well. The Buddhists also say this material pains and pleasure is account to the material combination. It does not say material combination of this body. Soul is different, but he did not say because during his time they could not understand it. So he did not say that the..., there is soul, but he simply said that this body is combination of material thing; that is the cause of pains and pleasure. So dismantle it. Let earthly part of the body go to earth, watery part of the body, let it... Nirvana, that is. Then I become zero, sunyavadi. Because he does not get any information of the soul, he takes account of the body. Analyze the body and it is composition of earth, water, air, fire, like that. So when it is dismantled, then where is pains and pleasure? That is his philosophy, sunyavada, make it zero.
Hayagriva: He sees the pleasure of the world as ultimately frustrating. Eternal becoming endless flux characterizes the revelation of the inner nature of will. Finally, the same thing shows itself in human endeavors and desires, which always delude us by presenting their satisfaction as the final end of will. As soon as we attain to them, they no longer appear the same. Therefore they soon grow stale or forgotten, and though not ultimately disowned, are yet always thrown aside as vanished illusions.
Prabhupada: So this is going on. He is getting, therefore, different types of body.
Hayagriva: He says we go..., there's a constant transition from desire to satisfaction and from satisfaction to a new desire, a rapid course of which is called happiness, and the slow course sorrow, and does not sink into that stagnation that shows itself in fearful boredom that paralyzes life. So it's this flux from desir e to satisfaction that characterizes the will's activities in the phenomenal world. But for Schopenhauer, outside of all of this flux there is only..., the only solution is nirvana or extinction.
Prabhupada: No, that is not the fact. One has to study that willing and satisfaction of the willing. So behind this willing and satisfaction of willing there is the person who is willing. He does not take that person into consideration.
Hayagriva: No.
Prabhupada: He takes only that the willing and satisfaction willing, that is the only business. But he does not see the person who is willing. That is his defect.
Hayagriva: Supreme Person.
Prabhupada: Not Supreme Person.
Hayagriva: The individual.
Prabhupada: The individual, who is put in this temporary world, willing and satisfaction, but he is reality behind this willing and satisfaction. (break) So Schopenhauer's defect is that he does not see the, there is a person behind this willing; the individual soul, he is willing. So when he stops this flickering willing, then what is next, that he does not see. Nirvana, stopping willing, of this nature of willing, temporary, one kind of willing, one kind of satisfaction, again another kind of willing... Behind this willing whimsically there is the spirit soul. So when the spirit comes to his real understanding of identification, that willing is pure willing. This willing is contaminated willing, material willing. So simply one should not be satisfied by stopping this whimsical willing, but when he comes to the real willing of the real person, that is spiritual life.
Hayagriva: He says, "Voluntary and complete chastity is the first step in asceticism or the denial of the will to live. It thereby denies the assertion of the will, which extends beyond the individual life and gives the assurance that with the life of the body, the will, whose manifestation it is, ceases."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Is this kind of extinction the purpose behind chastity?
Prabhupada: Behind the willing activities there is a person who is willing. So simply by negation of this temporary willing will not help him. He has to will reality. That is eternal willing. That is Krsna consciousness. He has been willing his sense satisfaction, material world, because he does not know there is another field of willing. So the same willing, when he will satisfy the senses of the Supreme, that is his eternal willing. Jivera svarupa haya nitya krsna dasa. Because when he analyzes, comes to the real knowledge, he finds himself that he is eternal servant of God. As such, when willing will be concentrated how to serve God, that is his real position of life--eternity, knowledge and bliss. That is Krsna consciousness.
Hayagriva: Although it appears that Schopenhauer does not believe in God, although his stand appears atheistic, he writes, "If a man fears death as his annihilation, it is just as if he were to think that the sun cries out at evening, 'Woe is me, for I go down to eternal night.' Thus even already, suicide appears to us as a vain and therefore a foolish action. When we have carried out our investigation further, it will appear to us in a still less favorable light."
Prabhupada: Investigation of father, that means God.
Hayagriva: The what?
Prabhupada: Investigation, he says?
Hayagriva: Oh, "When we have carried out our investigation further."
Prabhupada: Further.
Hayagriva: Yes, further, further. "More," "When we have investigated..."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "...further, it will appear to us in a still," that is suicide, "that death is not extinction."
Prabhupada: Then after death there is life. As soon as there is life, there is desire, willing.
Hayagriva: Yes. He says that so; therefore that's no solution. He says that death and life are integral.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: That they are comp..., they go together, death...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...and life.
Prabhupada: Because the will is there, therefore death is not stoppage of life. He gets another life, tatha dehantara-praptih. So this proves that the life or the person who is willing, desiring, he is eternal, but he does not know what should be his eternal willing. That is his defect. So we are teaching this. His eternal willing is that he should always will to serve Krsna. Then he will be happy.
Hayagriva: As to the identity of life and death, he says, "The wisest of all philosophies, the Indian, expresses this by giving to the very God that symbolizes destruction, death, by giving, I say to Siva, as an attribute not only the necklace of skulls but also the lingam, the symbol of generation, which appears here as the counterpart of death, thus signifying that generation and death are essentially correlatives which reciprocally neutralize and annul each other." So it's not death that is the solution.
Prabhupada: Then what is?
Hayagriva: What dies will be born again.
Prabhupada: So what is the solution?
Hayagriva: The solution is the annihilation of the will to live.
Prabhupada: How it is possible? So long the living entity is alive, he, he will will, some sort of willing. So that means the willing party, the living being, he is eternal, and the willing, this activity, has to be purified. Then his life will be happy. Willing cannot be stopped, because he is eternal. But he is wrongly willing; therefore he is unhappy. When he will come to the position of willing rightly, then he will be happy.
Hayagriva: According to him, the man of knowledge is not disturbed in any condition. He says, "Such a man would regard death as a false allusion, an impotent specter which frightens the weak but has no power over him, who knows that he is himself the will of which the whole world is the objectification or copy, and that therefore he is always certain of life and also of the present." He goes on to say that he could not be terrified by an endless past or future in which he would not be, for this he would regard...
Prabhupada: Then why does he want nirvana? This is contradictory.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: One side he says nirvana, and other side is that it is continued. When he could not understand the Indian philosophy, he is trying to address in his own way.
Hayagriva: He speaks of Bhagavad-gita. He says, "Krsna thus raises the mind of His young pupil Arjuna. When seized with compunction at the sight of the arrayed host armies, he loses heart and desires to give up the battle in order to avert the death of so many thousands. Krsna leads him to this point of view, and the death of those thousands can no longer restrain him. He gives the sign of battle." But was it actually Krsna's assurance of immortality that brought Arjuna to fight?
Prabhupada: Yes. Immortality. So what is his philosophy of the immortal living being? As he is immortal, his willing business is also immortal. If he accepts the living being as immortal, how he can stop--nirvana--his willing?
Hayagriva: He seems to have no other solution other than the suppression of willing.
Prabhupada: That is not possible. Suppression willing, that is not possible. He has to change the quality of willing; then he will be happy. And that is bhakti. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam. The process of willing should be purified. Then he will be happy. And the process of purifying the willing is bhakti, sravanam kirtanam visnoh, chanting and hearing of the pastimes, all about the Lord. That will purify him. He is missing the point that he is individual, accepting that life is eternal, and still he wants, prefers this nirvana. But he does not know what is nirvana. Nirvana means this kind of whimsical willing is troublesome. He has to stop this whimsical willing. He has to come to the standard willing. That is Krsna consciousness.
Hayagriva: He looked on the Indian philosophy and religion as basically a philosophy of the denial of the will, and he gives several examples of religious..., of suicide as a religious act. He says especially when it...
Prabhupada: That is, that is Mayavada. That is not... He did not study Indian philosophy and religion perfectly well. He simply has taken some portion of the Mayavada philosophy or Buddha philosophy, but he did not know about Vaisnava philosophy.
Hayagriva: But he gives the example of...
Prabhupada: Although he has touched Bhagavad-gita...
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: ...he did not study Bhagavad-gita thoroughly, that in the Bhagavad-gita Krsna says to Arjuna that if you, by your living, what is called, knowledge, if you simply try to have full knowledge about Krsna, then his willing, this material willing is purified, and after giving up this body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. That he has not studied. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya. Either he did not study Bhagavad-gita thoroughly or he could not understand for want of real spiritual master.
Hayagriva: He couldn't understand devotion to Krsna, that's for certain.
Prabhupada: Because he did not study Bhagavad-gita as it is recommended. The recommendation is that one should go to guru. And what kind of guru? Who has seen the truth practically. That he did not do. He is simply speculating on his own experience, and although everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita, he could not see it. That is the defect.
Hayagriva: As an example of suicide, he gives the..., he says that at the procession of Jagannatha in 1840, eleven Hindus threw themselves under the wheels and were instantly killed. And he also mentions the sati rituals of the woman throwing herself into the sacrificial fire, the fire of her husband's funeral pyre.
Prabhupada: This is not suicide. This is... Our life is continuation, but on account of impure understanding we are getting different types of body and you are suffering different varieties of miseries. So this suicidal, this is not suicidal, that voluntarily accepting death, so that by dying, if he thinks of the spiritual life, he gets it. Just like Kulasekhara, he has got a poetry that... In the Bhagavad-gita it is stated, yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajanty ante: we get next life according to the desire at the point of death. So generally, when death takes place, one sometimes remains in coma, all the bodily functions becomes defunct, he dreams in different ways and so on, so on. So he cannot dream or think independently. Therefore sometimes the intelligent class, they think that "If I meet death in sound health, then I can think of my next life, go back to home, back to Godhead, and I achieve it. Because at the time of death my thinking will be taken into consideration. So if by thinking of Jagannatha if I die, then I go back to Jagannatha."
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is not suicide. That is voluntarily accepting death so that immediately he can return back to the spiritual world.
Hayagriva: And that works?
Prabhupada: What?
Hayagriva: That's an actual...?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Caitanya Mahaprabhu--of course, that's different--threw Himself in the ocean, but that wasn't, that was probably...
Prabhupada: No, no, that is an ecstasy.
Hayagriva: That was different.
Prabhupada: Different.
Hayagriva: He speaks of the Indian religion, which demands the greatest sacrifices and which has yet remained so long in practice in a nation that embraces so many millions of persons cannot be arbitrarily invented superstition but must have its foundation in the nature of man. And he says that the religion has endured for more than four thousand years, despite the fact that the Hindu nation has been broken up into so many parts. But he sees the religion basically as a religion of the denial of will. But does the religion have its foundation in the nature of man?
Prabhupada: Yes, the denial, both the... There are two kinds of sects: this Mayavadi and the Vaisnava. So both of them know that this material world is flickering, and sometimes they say it is false, unreal. So there is another life; that is spiritual world. So the Mayavadi philosopher, their spiritual life means to merge into the Brahman effulgence, and the Vaisnava philosopher to go back to Goloka Vrndavana, Vaikuntha, where God is situated, and become His associate person. So both the ideas, spiritual ideas, that is attained after death. What does he say that is good about Hindus? He says that denial...
Hayagriva: He sees it basically as a denial of the will.
Prabhupada: Yes, but denial of the will for material happiness. So we will not deny willing, that willing for spiritual happiness. That is required. As you deny something, you must accept something; otherwise... You cannot remain in the neutral position. That is not possible. Param drstva nirvatanta. When you get a better position, then you give up this willing for lower position.
Hayagriva: The... He speaks of the sannyasi, who lives without a dwelling and entirely without property, who is advised not to lay down often under the same tree least he should acquire a preference or inclination for it above other trees. The Christian mystic and the teacher of the Vedanta philosophy agree in this respect also, that they both regard all outward works and religious exercises as superfluous for him who has attained to perfection. Isn't this the viewpoint of the Mayavadi, and doesn't Krsna recommend the lighting of the sacrificial fire even after one has attained perfection?
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna says, yajna-dana-tapah-kriya na tyajam. Because if he gives up this ritualistic ceremony, then there is chance of falling down. So even though he is liberated, to keep his position secure he should continue these three things: sacrifice, charity, and austerity.
Hayagriva: He speaks of sleep. He said, "The need for sleep is directly proportionate to the intensity of the brain life, thus the clearness of the consciousness. Those animals whose brain life is weak and dull sleep little and lightly, for example reptiles and fishes. Animals of considerable intelligence sleep deeply and long. Men also require more sleep the more developed both as regards quantity and quality, and the more active their brain is. The more completely awake a man is, the clearer and more lively his consciousness, the greater for him is the necessity of sleep, thus the deeper and longer he sleeps."
Prabhupada: Those who are ignorant and materially covered, they sleep more. Those who are spiritually enlightened, they sleep less. Sleep is the necessity of the body, not of the soul. So those who are advanced in the platform of spiritual identity, they do not require sleeping, as we find from the life of Rupa Gosvami. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau: they conquered over sleeping, eating, mating. That is spiritual life. To sleep is waste of time, so those who are actually interested in spiritual life, they adjust life in such a way that almost they sleep nil.
Hayagriva: Arjuna was praised as Gudaseka?
Prabhupada: Gudakesa, who has conquered over sleeping.
Hayagriva: It appears that Schopenhauer recommends about eight hours of sleep a night, and Krsna says not too much or too little. But what is recommended in terms of sleep, just concretely?
Prabhupada: Sleep should be avoided, but that is not possible. Therefore it should be adjusted to the minimum. Just like Gosvamis, they are sleeping not less, not more than two hours. Even we hear about some karmi, just like Napoleon, he was also not sleeping. He was taking rest on the back of the horse. I do not know whether it is so.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: But I know about Gandhi. He was sleeping when he is parking his car, because he was so busy.
Hayagriva: (laughing) He gives some examples of men, of philosophers who slept a great deal. Maybe because they speculated so hard they had to sleep more.
Prabhupada: No. Sleeping too much is bad in all circumstances. So, stop the machine. Stop this machine. Tomorrow is good. (break)
Hayagriva: In The Ages of Life, Schopenhauer writes, "A complete and adequate notion of life can never be attained by anyone who does not reach old age, for it is only the old man who sees life whole and knows its natural course. It is only he who is acquainted, and this is most important, not only with its entrance, like the rest of mankind, but with its exit too, so that he alone has a full sense of its utter vanity, while the others never cease to labor under the false notion that everything will come right in the end.
Prabhupada: I could not follow. Old man is perfect?
Hayagriva: No. But an old man can see the course of life, can see life in its entirety, the ages...
Prabhupada: As far as different, old men have got different experience. We have seen in Western countries old men, they still follow the path of sense gratification. So where is his experience? Unless there is training, simply to become old man is not sufficient. Training is required. Old man, actual old man should take renunciation. That is Vedic plan. At the end of life one should become a sannyasa and completely devote his time and energy to understand and serve God. So unless there is training from the very beginning as brahmacari, simply by age one is not mature. That is not correct.
Hayagriva: He says it's customary to call youth happy and age the sad part of life. This would be true if it were the passions that made a man happy. Youth...
Prabhupada: Happy, happiness to the modern standard means sense gratification. So that sense gratification continues even in old man. So actually he requires training and acquirement of knowledge. There is a word in Sanskrit, vidya tam (indistinct). One can become old man even without age. That means it is knowledge that is counted, not the age.
Hayagriva: There's an expression, "The old fool."
Prabhupada: Old fool, yes.
Hayagriva: An old goat.
Prabhupada: Yes. If he is not educated properly, he remains a old fool. Yes.
Hayagriva: He says, "In one of the Vedic Upanisads, the natural length of human life is put down at one hundred years, and I believe this to be right. I have observed, as a matter of fact, that it is only people who exceed the age of ninety who attain euthanasia, who die, that is to say, of no disease, apoplexy, or convulsion, and pass away without agony of any sort. To come to one's end before the age of ninety means to die of disease, in other words, prematurely."
Prabhupada: Yes, the maximum age in this millennium is hundred years, but formerly they used to live for thousand years. Before that they used to live for ten thousand years, and before that they used to live for one hundred thousands of years. So nowadays we don't think even they are going up to hundred years, even not ninety years.
Hayagriva: Sixty, sixty-seven.
Prabhupada: Sixty-seven is the average. The more one becomes sensuous, the duration of life is lessened. That is the law of nature.
Hayagriva: So that's all on Schopenhauer. (end)
Philosophy Discussions DARWIN.HAY
Charles Darwin
Hayagriva: This is Darwin. Darwin's conception of evolution rests on the contention that there is a real genetic change from generation to generation. In other words, Darwin rejects the platonic igos. Igos is the Greek for idea, type or essence. There is no human igos, human type or essence. There are no fixed species. This is in contradistinction to the platonic idea that the species exist in essence or, as Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita, bijam, "I am the seed of all existences." Darwin would not recognize any bijam, or seed, particular type for any species. Rather, he sees shifting, evolving physical forms constantly changing.
Prabhupada: The different forms are already there. Just like the form of monkeys also there, the form of man is also there, other animals, other birds, beasts. So he has no clear conception how the evolution is taking place, neither he has any idea about whose evolution. He simply takes account of the body. A body never evolves. It is the soul within the body--he evolves, transmigrates from one body to another. Just we see that a child becomes a boy. The..., if the child is dead, it no more evolves. So it is the soul that is concerned. The soul is within the body, and he desires and evolves. That is Vedic conception and that is life. For example, if a man is within an apartment, the man desires to change the apartment to another apartment, it does not mean that the apartment evolves, but the man desires a change, and he goes to different apartment. That is (indistinct). So Darwin has no such conception. He has described the idea of evolution from the Vedas in his own way.
Hayagriva: At first Darwin was a Christian, but his faith in the existence of a personal God dwindled, and he finally wrote, "The whole subject"--that is the subject of religion, or God--"is beyond the scope of man's intellect. The mystery of the beginning of things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic. I have steadily endeavored to keep my mind free, so as to give up any hypothesis, however much beloved, as soon as facts are shown to be opposed to it." So he didn't argue against Plato or Descartes or Kant or any other philosopher, but he simply presented what evidence he had amassed during a five..., only a five-year voyage, on a British freighter, oh, from 1831 to 1836. But what is considered important is that his book, The Origin of Species, marks what they call the emancipation of science from philosophy.
Prabhupada: What is that, emancipation?
Hayagriva: That is to say he simply presented what material he found--that is the fossils. He investigated certain life forms on these island during this trip and theorized about evolution.
Prabhupada: That is philosophic; that is not scientific. He found something and he based his thesis on that. He cannot find out all the bodies, because there are, at the end, some section, some sect they burn the body. So how he can get information of their body, burned? So his theory is not at all scientific. It is always defective.
Hayagriva: He spent the rest of his life writing about the material he gathered during this five-year voyage, which is a very short time. And according to his theory of natural selection, the best and the fittest survived. If this is the case, the race will necessarily steadily improve.
Prabhupada: What does he mean by survive? What is the meaning of his dictionary, "survive"? Nobody survives.
Hayagriva: Well, by that he means that the strong pass on their hereditary characteristics to their offspring, and that the race..., no individual survives, but that the race improves. But isn't this contradicted by the Vedas? In the present Kali... For instance, Arjuna's physical powers, prowess, was much greater, and that was, what, five thousand years ago. So isn't, instead of improving, instead of the race improving in strength and other qualities, isn't it actually...
Prabhupada: They are degrading.
Hayagriva: ...degenerating. What is the cause of man's physical, mental and spiritual deterioration in the succeeding yugas?
Prabhupada: That is education. Every individual person, he is a soul, and he has got a particular type of body. Especially in the human body he requires education. What is this animal and what is higher than human race, these are Vedic description. So there are 8,400,000 different forms of life, and the body is being evolved. The body is machine, and the individual soul desires and he gets a suitable body made by material nature under the order of God. This is Vedic idea, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gita, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati. God is existing within the core of everyone's heart, and the individual soul is desiring something, and upon the order God he is given a machine made by material nature. So this is evolution, and even a man, although he is human form of body, he can again degenerate to animal form of body according to his desire. Tatha dehantara-praptih. He has to change the body, and the body is changed according to his work and desire. In the animal kingdom they have also desires, but they are under the laws of nature changing body, and one is given the chance to become a human being, and then he may desire, and according to his desires he gets the next body. If he likes, he can go higher forms of life, and if he degenerates he goes lower form of life.
Hayagriva: But as the yugas progress, the human body itself, doesn't it become more degraded?
Prabhupada: What do you mean by degraded? He has got human body, but by his work and by his desire he can get next life a demigod's body or a dog's body. That will depend on his activities. Human body is meant for understanding God and act accordingly to go back to home, back to Godhead. But if he does not utilize this human form of body properly, if he remains on the platform of animal propensities and degenerates, then he goes..., he can become next life a dog, a cat. There are two things: elevation or degeneration.
Hayagriva: In The Descent of Man Darwin writes, "The belief in God has often been advanced as not only the greatest but the most complete of all the distinctions between man and the lower animals. It is, however, impossible to maintain that this belief is instinctive in man. The idea of a universal and beneficent creator does not seem to arise in the mind of man until he has been elevated by long, continued culture."
Prabhupada: Yes. The culture is important. If he gets the chance of cultured association, then he elevates. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita: yanti deva-vrata devan. If he, according to his cultural life, he can go to the higher planetary system, he can remain where he is, he can degrade, and he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore culture is very important in human form of life.
Hayagriva: He further writes, "He who believes in the advancement of man from some low organized form will naturally ask, 'How does this bear on the belief in the immortality of the soul?' " He says, "At what precise period does a man become an immortal being?" That is to say, he doesn't know at what stage the immortal soul inhabits the species.
Prabhupada: Yes, soul is always important. He is put into different bodies. That is the defect of Darwin's knowledge. He does not know about the soul. So the existence of soul, to understand this is the first education. One who does not know this, he remains animal, sa eva go-kharah, if one continues the bodily concept of life without any understanding of the soul. And it is very easy to understand that the child is becoming boy, a boy is becoming young man. So the soul is there, and we remember that "I was a child, I was a boy, I was a young man." So I continue to exist, the bodily changes, and this is confirmed in every Vedic scripture, and that is the beginning of knowledge. If one does not understand how the soul is changing body, he remains on the level of cats and dogs.
Hayagriva: He does..., he says he doesn't know at what point the soul enters, but the soul is in anything that moves. Is that correct?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: Even a...
Prabhupada: The soul moves.
Hayagriva: ...bacteria for instance, or an ant.
Prabhupada: So ant moves because there is soul; the bacteria moves there because there is soul. Similarly, the man moves because there is soul. An animal moves because there is soul.
Hayagriva: And every soul is immortal.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: So that's all, on Darwin. (break) This is an appendix to the Darwin. In 1925 the Tennessee legislature passed the Butler Act, forbidding the teaching of Darwinism, Darwinian evolution, in the public schools of that state. In May, John Thomas Scopes, a science teacher at Dayton High School, consented to be the defendant in a court test of the law. He was arrested and indicted by a Grand Jury and stood trial on July 1925.
Prabhupada: Why he was arrested?
Hayagriva: For teaching Darwinism. For teaching that man descended from the apes.
Prabhupada: So he was teaching, and the government arrested him?
Hayagriva: The government, the American government, arrested, yes. The Tennessee legislature arrested him. He was arrested and defended by Clarence Darrow, famous trial lawyer, and the prosecutor was William Jennings Bryan, who was a thrice defeated Presidential candidate. So they discussed evolution and religion and how they could co-exist, and Scopes, who was teaching Darwinian evolution, claimed, "All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship almighty God according to the dictates of his own conscience. No human authority can in any case whatever control or interfere with the rights of conscience, and that no preference should ever be given by law to any religious establishment or mode of worship."
Prabhupada: This is, this worship and the concept of worship, if actually one believes or knows, so the real worship is that which pleases God. If you manufacture... Just like I want a glass of water, and if my servant gives me a glass of hot milk, is that worship? Worship means what I want, if you give me, then I am satisfied. But if I want a cold glass of water, you give me..., if you think, "No. Milk is better than water," so that, will that satisfy me? So these concocted ideas of worshiping will actually satisfy God, that is wrong theory, that one can worship God according to his own dictation. That means his God is fictitious. He has no idea of God. And he can concoct ideas. But actually if there is God, one should worship according to the dictation of God. But if he does not know what is God, what is the dictation of God, then he is a rascal. What is the use of his so-called worship? It may be to some extent a sentiment, but that is not worship. If you want to worship God, you must worship God according to His dictation. That is real worship. How he can manufacture the way of worship?
Hayagriva: The prosecutor...
Prabhupada: What will be the answer? If you want to worship God, you must worship according to the dictation of God. If you have no such dictation, if you have no idea of God, then how you can worship God? You can worship a ghost, according unto you. If freedom is given to your conception, then you can worship a dog instead of God, because you do not know what is God and what God wants you to do. So without the conception of God, real, how one can worship God by whimsical ideas?
Hayagriva: This has always been a very touchy subject in the schools.
Prabhupada: This is the real subject.
Hayagriva: In the schools, now in the United States, the schools are not even allowed to mention God, not even allowed to mention God.
Prabhupada: That means that is frustration. They could not get the idea of God. This is frustration. This kind of conclusion means they try to understand God, but there was no proper understanding of God, so they have given up the idea of understanding God. So frustration, rejection by frustration is not success. The best thing is they should learn about God from God and do accordingly. That is success. So we are preaching the message of God, and people should take to it to understand God and worship Him. That is success.
Hayagriva: Bryan, the prosecutor, chastised the Darwinists for not telling us where life began and at the same time speaking of evolution. He says, "They do not dare to tell you that it began with God and ended with God. Darwin says, 'In the beginning of all things is a mystery insoluble by us.' He does pretend to say how these things started." And he goes on...
Prabhupada: That means imperfect knowledge. We say that material world is creation, and within the material world the living entities are allowed to act. So the living entities coming from God; therefore He says bijo aham. So God... Just like our life begins from the womb of the mother, but the father gives the bija. The mother's womb cannot produce itself; then there was no need of father. The father gives the bija and the mother gives the body. Similarly, the living entity, part and parcel of God, is put into the material nature, and according to his desire the material nature gives him a body. That is the beginning. Very simple thing. But these people, on account of insufficient knowledge they cannot understand what is the beginning, either Darwin or the opposite. This is the beginning. The material nature is created by God, and the living entities, who are part and parcel of God, desire to enjoy this material nature, so God impregnated material nature with the living entities. This is the beginning.
Hayagriva: Bryan had the...
Prabhupada: Who can say against this statement of Vedas? This is the beginning of life. But none of them, both the contending parties, had clear idea what is the beginning. This is the beginning.
Hayagriva: Yes. Bryan had difficulty in attacking Darwinism because he based his arguments...
Prabhupada: Darwin says he does not know the beginning.
Hayagriva: He based his arguments strictly on the Bible, Bryan. This is not Darwin, but the prosecutory.
Prabhupada: What they... What is the beginning of Bible?
Hayagriva: And he, he was ridiculed, Bryan, for his fundamental..., for his fundamentalism. The Bible says, "And God said let us make man in our image," etc. "God created man in His own image, and the image of God created He him," etc., and the Bible fixes the creation at about six thousand years ago, but science fixes, oh, ancient civilizations of China and India, oh, six thousand, seven thousand years ago, much... And the Vedas deal with a much, much broader time span.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: So...
Prabhupada: So it is not the question of...
Hayagriva: ...it was extremely difficult for Bryan to maintain any kind of prosecution with these...
Prabhupada: But because both, we say that both of them are ignorant about the beginning. So if both of them are ignorant, so either you say six thousand, seven thousand, or six million, this is all imagination. It is not fact. But the six thousand or seven thousand, that is not the fact--millions and millions of years. But the fact is this, that God created this cosmic manifestation, and He impregnated the living entities to appear in different types of body according to the soul's desire. That I have already explained. The soul... "Man proposes; God disposes." Not only human form of life but all the animal forms of life, they are also from the very beginning. Not like Darwin's theory that there was no human form of life in the beginning. That is a wrong theory. All the forms of life were there, and the, actually the body is external; within the body there is the soul. So the body is created by material nature and the soul is part and parcel of God. This is the real idea. So how they can refute this idea if they have no idea about the beginning of life?
Hayagriva: It was very difficult on the basis of the Bible. The Vedas date the creation back, oh...
Prabhupada: That it is a question of time, and it is the beginning.
Hayagriva: The beginning of the creation was when? No...
Prabhupada: No. There is no question of when. It may be seven thousand years or seven millions of years, but the beginning should be taken like this, that God created this cosmic manifestation. And wherefrom the living entities came? That also came from God. That is explained clearly in the Bhagavad-gita, that this material creation is composition of earth, water, air, fire..., like that, that this is also God's energy. The ingredients of this material world coming from God, that is called prakrti and pradhana. He is the creator. And then the living entities, they are also coming from God. So this material energy is explained as inferior energy, and the living entity is explained as superior energy, both of them coming from God. So the beginning of life simultaneously. It is not that matter later on developed to become life. That is a wrong theory.
Hayagriva: So, so much... It's the end of Darwin. (break) ...Thomas, Thomas Henry...
Prabhupada: In that case, all defect is that nobody could ascertain the beginning of life, but here is the solution. The beginning of life is from the very beginning of creation.
Hayagriva: Simultaneous creation.
Prabhupada: Simultaneously. That we see practically. That pregnancy, in the beginning of the body that is the beginning of life also. No that first of all one becomes pregnant and then the life comes. You have got a daily experience. Rather, the life is there, therefore the pregnancy is there. Is it not? But they say, modern rascals, that the, the body develops to a certain extent and then the life comes. So before the life coming, if the body is destroyed there is no killing. Is not that the theory at the present moment, they are killing child?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: But these foolish persons, they do not know that the body grows provided there is life; otherwise it does not grow. So life and body together. (end)
Philosophy Discussions HUXLEY.HAY
Thomas Henry Huxley
Hayagriva: This is Thomas Henry Huxley. Huxley felt that the main difference between man and the animals is the ability to speak. Now, is...
Prabhupada: That is the beginning of another nonsense. Everyone speaks in his own language. What does he..., what he means by speak?
Hayagriva: But isn't speech, which is the articulation of the intellect, the primary difference between man and the animals in the sense that is it not through words that one can come to understand God?
Prabhupada: That is another thing, but the animal has a, his own language, as the human being has his own language. So why does he say that? When he speaks, he speaks from the very beginning in his own language.
Hayagriva: Well he, he, he mentions speech as being "Intelligible, rational speech..."
Prabhupada: They have got rational speech.
Hayagriva: "...that accumulates and organizes experience which is almost lost with the cessation of indi..., with every individual life in other animals." In other words, man has a history due to language, but animals may be able to articulate certain basic facts to one another, but they have no culture or history.
Prabhupada: Then those who speak in Sanskrit language, they are only human beings; all other animals. If he says like that, Sanskrit language is the oldest...
Hayagriva: It is the oldest.
Prabhupada: ...mother of all language, and one who speaks in Sanskrit, he is only perfect, all other animals, according to his theory. But Mr. Huxley does not speak in Sanskrit.
Hayagriva: Well, we'll see. He read quite a bit. I don't know if he read in Sanskrit or English, but he read quite a bit of the Vedas.
Prabhupada: No, why does he say that the language, he gives that...
Hayagriva: Probably not.
Prabhupada: ...everyone has his language. It does not mean that the animals have no language. They have got their own language. The birds have their own language, the Englishmen have their own language, the Indians have their own language. So there are different varieties of life, and each one has his own language.
Hayagriva: Although Huxley was called...
Prabhupada: Language is not the important. The education is important. A developed human being can take real education, while the animals are not able to take. That you can define. It is not the question of language. Knowledge can be imparted, in particular knowledge, a language, just like we are imparting Vedic knowledge in English. So it is not the language, it is the knowledge. But the animals cannot take the knowledge of God. That is their defective. But a human form of body or a human being, it doesn't matter in what language he speaks, but if the knowledge of God is properly imparted in him, then he can understand. The dog cannot understand. That is the difference.
Hayagriva: Huxley, although an evolutionist, and although he was called Darwin's bulldog, he differed with Darwin, especially on the theory of the survival of the fittest. He believed in the survival of those who are ethically the best.
Prabhupada: That is..., that can be said fittest. "Best" and "fittest," where is the difference?
Hayagriva: He says the strongest, the most self-assertive, tend to tread down the weaker.
Prabhupada: First thing is what do they mean by survival?
Hayagriva: Well, the continuance of a culture.
Prabhupada: That is going on. Every culture is continued. The Vedic culture is there and other cultures are also there. It is continuing.
Hayagriva: He says the influence of the cosmic process on the evolution of society is greater the more rudimentary its civilization. Social progress means a checking of the cosmic process at every step, and the substitution for it of another, which may be called the ethical process.
Prabhupada: So the difference...
Hayagriva: The cosmic process is the process of creation, maintenance and ultimate annihilation. He says this can be checked by a..., an ethical culture.
Prabhupada: The cosmic process cannot be checked, but the cosmic process is continuing in different modes. That is called tri-guna. One process is the process of goodness, another process is the process of passion, another process is process of ignorance. So in the process of goodness, real advancement goes on, and ultimately one has to transcend the process of goodness also and come to the platform which is all-good. In the material world, whichever process you accept, it is mixed, both goodness, passion and ignorance. It is very difficult in the material way of life to keep the process pure. Therefore the real process is gradually bring the being or the soul to the platform of goodness and then transcend also goodness and keep him or let him remain in the actual platform of pure goodness. That is wanted. That is really progress. That pure goodness is bhakti. When the transaction is only with God--there is no other transaction--that is pure goodness. That is survival of the fittest. When one comes to that platform of pure goodness, he survives. Otherwise nobody survives. When... Everyone has to change the body--this body to that body, that, tatha dehantara-prap... But one who comes to the pure goodness platform, he understands God, then he hasn't got to change. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti. That is survival; otherwise there is no meaning of survival. They do not know what is this survival. Survival means that when the soul remains pure, in his original position, does not change body, that is survival. In the spiritual world there is no more change, so that is survival. And in the material world there is change. That is not survival. So they do not know what is the meaning of survival. If there is change, there is no survival. Everyone has to change the body.
Hayagriva: Well, that sort of negates the rest of this.
Prabhupada: So survival is explained?
Hayagriva: The rest of this doesn't survive (laughing).
Prabhupada: (laughs) Now what do you think, individually?
Hayagriva: Oh, I..., he said Huxley looks on civilization as something of an attempt to give order to nature. "Civilization might be defined as a complex ethical understanding between men enabling as many men as possible to survive."
Prabhupada: No, that is not possible. Nature is so strong that either you become Huxley or Einstein or somebody else, you must die. That is nature's law. You cannot dictate nature. The nature will go on dictating to you; then you must die. That is the... There is no question of survival under the regulation of the material nature. There is no... When you go above the dictation of the material nature, then you survive. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. When one realizes Brahman understanding, then he survives; otherwise there is no survival.
Hayagriva: Well, Huxley is typically British. He wrote in...
Prabhupada: He is a British or Frenchman?
Hayagriva: Huxley, no, he was English, Englishman.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: He says, "By the Ganges ethical man admits that the cosmos is too strong for him..."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "...and destroying every bond which ties him to it by ascetic discipline he seeks salvation in absolute renunciation."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He says..., but he says, "This attempt to escape from evil has ended in flight from the battlefield." He doesn't advocate this for an Englishman. In a typically British manner he quotes Alfred Lord Tennyson. He says, "We are grown men and must play the man strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yield."
Prabhupada: Rascal, at last you die. (laughter) You do not like to yield, but the nature kicks on your face and says you must die. That he does not like.
Hayagriva: Well, at any rate he's dead now, so...
Prabhupada: So therefore he is..., he is not surviving. He was...
Hayagriva: He admits, he says, "This seems..."
Prabhupada: Either you be Englishman or Frenchman or this man, you cannot survive. You have to succumb under the dictation of the superior nature. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, that--I think Huxley read Bhagavad-gita; he does not know--that,
prakrteh kriyamanani
gunaih karmani sarvasah
ahankara-vimudhatma
kartaham iti manyate
This kind of conception, that "I shall survive, I am Englishman," this is a false egotism and bewildered soul. Whatever he may be, Englishman or this man or that man, he must die. That is the law of nature. So intelligent man first of all makes provision "How I shall not die." That is real business of human being. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, that if one simply understands Krsna, then he survives; otherwise one has to die. There is no doubt. Nobody can...
Hayagriva: Huxley did appear to have..., to adhere to the doctrine of transmigration. He says, "The doctrine of transmigration constructs a plausible indication of the ways of the cosmos to man. Every sentient being is reaping as it has sown, if not in this life then in one or other of the infinite series of antecedent existences of which it is the latest turn." In Evolution and Ethics he writes about brahman and atman and liberation. He says, "The earlier forms of Indian philosophy agreed with those prevalent in our times, and supposing the existence of a permanent reality or substance beneath the shifting series of phenomena, whether of matter or of mind, the substance of the cosmos was brahman, that of individual man atman, and the latter, that is atman, was separated from brahman only by its..."
Prabhupada: That is also not. He is not separated. He is, brahman and atman, they are existing, co-existing, and that is explained in the Bhagavad-gita in the chapter "Ksetra and Ksetrajna." The body is the field, and the atma, individual soul, is the owner of the field or the worker in the field. So it is also said there is another owner, ksetra-jnam capi mam vidhi. As the individual is working in the body, similarly, there is another soul working in the body. So what is the difference between the two? The two is different that the individual soul knows only about his own body, but the other soul, Supersoul, He knows everything of every body. That is the difference. I know the pains and pleasure of my body. I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body. But this Supersoul, He knows the pains and pleasure of this body, of that body, of millions and millions of bodies. That is the difference between the two souls. But the two souls are there. One is called Supersoul, paramatma, and the individual soul is called atma. So atma and paramatma are there. The difference between them is that atma knows about his own body and the paramatma knows everything of all bodies. That is the difference.
Hayagriva: His understanding was the understanding of the Sankarites, that the atma is imprisoned in the body. When the man is enlightened and sees apparent reality as mere illusion, the bubble of illusion will burst, and the freed individual atman will lose itself in the universal brahman.
Prabhupada: Then that does not mean that the atma becomes the paramatma. Just like a drop of water, you put into the sea, it mixes with the sea. It is not mixing. Now suppose it is mixing, but that does not mean that the drop of water has become the sea. He is mixed with the seawater, but that, that does not mean he is the sea. He was not sea before, and after dropping him in the sea, he remains as what he was, but he is mixed up in the sea. Just like an airplane is flying, you see, and going higher and higher, and going very high you do not see. That doesn't mean the airplane is lost. You do not see. So these Sankarites' proposal is defective. Just like a green bird enters a tree but you do not see the bird anymore. You simply foolishly think that he has become one with the tree. But that is foolishness. He keeps his individuality, but your defective eyes cannot see him anymore. The Sankarite theory is like that, a defective understanding, that the individual soul merges into the Supreme. He keeps always his individuality. The foolish man cannot see how he has merged or existing.
Hayagriva: He says, "There is no external power which could affect the sequence of cause and effect which gives rise to karma. None but the will of the subject of the karma which could put an end to it." Now by willing to surrender to Krsna, the individual allows Krsna to put an end to his karma.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Is that...? So Krsna is called Mukunda.
Prabhupada: Yes. So our idea is(?) that is Mukunda.
Hayagriva: So Huxley has no idea that, of the, of this.
Prabhupada: I said, I said this, that Krsna is therefore called Mukunda.
Hayagriva: You said that.
Prabhupada: Yes. I think this is my statement.
Hayagriva: Yes. No, this isn't Huxley.
Prabhupada: Huxley said...
Hayagriva: Huxley says, "This salvation of liberation from karma was to be attained through knowledge and by action based on that knowledge." The supernatural, in our sense of the term, is entirely excluded.
Prabhupada: Yes. We are acting under certain designation, that just like Mr. Huxley said a few minutes before, that "We are Englishmen." So this is designation. So, so long you will work under designation, there is no freedom. Because under false impression that "I am Englishman," "I am Frenchman," "Let me work in this way," that means you are entangling himself, yourself into some other way, so that today you are Englishman, next day you may be Frenchman or dog's man, that you are entangling yourself. But when you give up this designation, that "I am no man, no other's man, but I am Krsna's man," then you will save yourself. Otherwise... Therefore to become Krsna consciousness, conscious, is actual platform of freedom from karma.
Hayagriva: So that there's no question of independent liberation?
Prabhupada: No. Therefore that is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, yajna-arthat karma. Only for yajna or Krsna you should work. Yajna-arthat karma, anyatra karma-bandhanah. Otherwise you are entangled. This is freedom, to work for Krsna; then you are not under entanglement. This is..., there are many practical examples. Just that a soldier, he is killing, his business is killing, and the more he kills he gets recognition. But as soon as he kills one man on his own account, he is murderer. Just like when... The soldier's business is to kill, and so long he is killing for the satisfaction of his state, of the government, he is getting recognition medals. The same soldier, as soon as he kills one man for his own sense satisfaction, he is a murderer, he is to be hanged. This is the karma-bandhanah. The business the same--killing. But one killing is on the order of the state and one killing is for his sense gratification. So killing business is the same, but the position is different. Similarly, when you act for Krsna, that is not karma-bandhanah; that is freedom. And when you act for yourself, that is karma-bandhanah. That is the teaching of Bhagavad-gita throughout. Arjuna was thinking, "Killing, and suffer the sinful activities," because he was thinking on account of himself. But when he understood that "I am induced to kill on behalf of Krsna. Krsna wants this fight," then he accepted Krsna's proposal. That is not karma-bandhanah. That is not killing. One has to understand this.
Hayagriva: Now there is one interesting point that Huxley makes in Evolution and Ethics. He tries to tie in the theory of karma with the theory of evolution.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He writes in this way: "In the theory of evolution the tendency of a germ to develop according to a certain specific type, for instance of a kidney bean seed to grow into a plant having all the characters of Phaseolus vulgaris," that is a kidney bean, "that is its karma. The snowdrop is a snowdrop and not an oak tree--and just that kind of snowdrop--because it is the outcome of the karma of an endless series of past existences."
Prabhupada: Yes. Karma... That is called karma-bandhanah: one after another, one after another, one after another, it is going on. So if this evolutionary process one comes to the form of human being, then he is allowed the discrimination to decide whether he shall continue in this karma-bandhanah process or he should stop his karma-bandhanah process and surrender to Krsna. If he surrenders to Krsna then his karma-bandhanah process stopped, and if he does not, then he is again put into the karma-bandhanah process by the laws of nature.
Hayagriva: So he does appear at least a little closer than Darwin, because Darwin didn't recognize any of this transmigration at all.
Prabhupada: Darwin, he is all through. Everyone is more or less. Unless one has got the right knowledge... Why Darwin? Everyone is under false impression. Therefore our proposition is that you take right knowledge from the right person, Krsna, then you are perfect. And if you go on speculating--you speculate in one way, I speculate in another way--it does not mean that we are intelligent person.
Hayagriva: The, Huxley, it was Huxley who coined the word "agnostic," as the opposite of gnostic, of church history. The word gnostic is "one who follows in the gnostic tradition of church history."
Prabhupada: According to Vedic, nastika word is there, nastika.
Hayagriva: Gnostic.
Prabhupada: Nastika means who does not believe in the Vedas.
Hayagriva: Ol, this is different: gnostic.
Prabhupada: Nastika, it is gnostic.
Hayagriva: This is gnost..., N-O-S-T-I-C. Gnostic is one in the gnostic tradition, or in the church tra..., in the tradition of the Christian Church, and ag..., he used the word a-nost, agnostic. So this word was coined by... Coined.
Prabhupada: What does, what is the meaning of ag?
Hayagriva: That means, well, like there's dharma and there's adharma, that is, er, "not." "Not," a, meaning "not."
Prabhupada: Against, against.
Hayagriva: As theism and atheism.
Prabhupada: That means against; ag means against.
Hayagriva: Yeah, against. But according to him, agnosticism holds that man shouldn't assert what he calls a truth without logically satisfactory evidence.
Prabhupada: We say "without any authority."
Hayagriva: When Huxley became a Darwinist he rejected a supernatural God and the Bible. In For Argument from Design... He believed in, previously he believed in a Christian God as the designer, but he believed that Darwin's theory gave this Christian conception its death blow. He did not accept a pantheistic God, like Spinoza did, as being identical... Excuse me. He did accept a pantheistic God, like Spinoza did, as being identical with nature. That is, he saw God as nature, and he believed in the divine government of the universe. He believed that the cosmic process is rational, not random...
Prabhupada: How it becomes rational?
Hayagriva: ...but he rejected a personal God concerned with morality.
Prabhupada: That is his defect. The nature is dead body, matter. So how it can be rational? Just like this table is a dead wood. How it can be rational? That is nonsense. The carpenter is rational, who has made the wood in the shape. So he says the nature is rational. Nature is dead matter. How it can be rational? Therefore there is a rational being behind the nature. That is God. This, the wood, is dead. The wood, out of its own accord, cannot become a table. The carpenter is shaping the wood into table. That is rational. Therefore behind the dead nature, the rational being is God. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. I think Mr. Huxley is supposed to have read..., understand he has given some comment on the Ramakrishna Mission Bhagavad-gita, but he has not studied Bhagavad-gita thoroughly.
Hayagriva: Oh, that's his son, his grandson.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: That's Aldous, Aldous Huxley.
Prabhupada: Uh-huh.
Hayagriva: And this is Thomas Henry Huxley.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: It's a very famous English family of many...
Prabhupada: So anyway, we...
Hayagriva: That's his grandson was, uh...
Prabhupada: So this Thomas Huxley, how he says that the nature has rational, has knowledge? We don't find. A dead stone, maybe big mountain, but has it got rationality? How does he say that the nature has rationality? What is the basis?
Hayagriva: Well, it's the pantheistic, it's the same pantheistic contention that God is..., God is impersonal and made the tree grow.
Prabhupada: Maybe. "Impersonal," "personal," that we shall consider, but God is sentient. He is all-pervasive. That is accepted. Maya tatam idam sarvam. That's all right. But God is not like the dead matter, who has no sense. We don't find the dead matter has got rationality. The rationality behind the dead matter is God.
Hayagriva: That's it on Huxley. (end)
Philosophy Discussions BERGSON.HAY
Henri Bergson
Hayagriva: This is Henri Bergson, additional notations. (break) Srila Prabhupada? If you could move. I don't think it would be good to have something between me and the microphone, because it might... Nothing between me and the microphone.
Hari-sauri: Well, can we do this?
Hayagriva: Close? Oh, all right. Bergson maintained that God's reality can only be intuited by mystical experience. The creative effort is of God, if it is not God Himself. Knowledge of God leads to activity not passivity.
Prabhupada: Yes. Knowledge of God is activity. Just like bhakti, we are twenty-four hours active, not that we are meditating on. So it is service. God says that anyone who preaches this message of Bhagavad-gita, that is activity. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's order, that you, all of you, become guru. To become guru means activity, to train the disciples. So this Krsna consciousness movement is full of activity for giving, rendering service to God, Krsna. It is activity.
Hayagriva: The word..., the word "mystic" is not a very clear word. It can mean so many different things. When he says God's reality can only be intuited by mystical experience, one doesn't really know what this means.
Prabhupada: No, mystical... One who does not know God, for him it is mystical, but one who knows God, he takes orders from God. This is defined, anukulyena krsnanusilanam, means favorably working for satisfaction of God. But if one's idea of God is not clear, he thinks it is mystical, but one who has got clear idea of God, clear order from God, then it is not mystical but it is practical.
Hayagriva: He believed that mystics--he uses the words "mystics," not--mystics participate in God's love for mankind and aid the divine purpose.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the...
Hayagriva: This is the real meaning of creative evolution.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is in ignorance due to long separation from God. In the material world the living entity has forgotten his relationship with God; therefore his activities are only sense gratification, like the animals. And when he is given lesson, instruction how to become God conscious, how to love God, that is activity, and that is real life. Otherwise it is animal life. The religion is a kind of faith, sentiment, but when the religious system is understood on the basis of good logic and philosophy, that becomes perfect understanding of God. Without philosophy, religious understanding is sentiment. That sentiment does not help anyone very much. It continues for some time, then people become disinterested in the matter of religion. So religion means, as it is stated in the Bhagavata, Srimad-Bhagavatam, how one has learned to love God. Then it is religion. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje. Adhoksaja means we do not see God eye to eye at the present moment in our physical condition, but still, hearing about Him, we can develop our dormant love for God. That is real religion.
Hayagriva: Bergson saw the greatest obstacle to this creative evolution to be the struggle with materialism, and he felt that politics and economic reforms cannot help matters.
Prabhupada: No. These are different subject matter. It... Politics or economic development can help, provided it is guided properly. Otherwise, if the politics, economic development is aimed at understanding God and our relationship with God, then politics is all right. Otherwise it does not help at all. But this, so far Vedic civilization is concerned, the society is divided into eight division, varna and asrama. So the sannyasi, the brahmana, they are meant for educating the others to develop dormant God consciousness. And the ksatriyas, they are to support these teachings of God consciousness because that is the objective of human life. But unfortunately, they have forgotten everything. They think simply taking care of the body and live comfortably and enjoy sense gratification. That is animal civilization; that is not human civilization.
Hayagriva: He felt that the spirit of mysticism must be kept alive by the fortunate few who know God until such time as a profound change in the material conditions imposed on humanity by nature should permit in spiritual matters of a profound transformation.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is Krsna consciousness movement. Actually they are trying to change the whole situation. The perfect social order is, as I have already mentioned it, that is perfect society when they have learned how to love God, without any motive, as natural behavior between the father and the son, and the son and the father, mother and the son. That is real perfection, perfection of society. Godless society is animal society. It is not to be adored.
Hayagriva: What could..., what must he mean by "until such time as a profound change in the material conditions imposed on humanity by nature should permit in spiritual matters of a profound transformation?" What kind of...
Prabhupada: Transformation.
Hayagriva: ...change in material condition would permit...
Prabhupada: Material condition is the four principles of bodily demands: eating, sleeping, sex and defense. This is material condition. So when the human society... Just like at the present moment they are simply interested in these four things, how to eat nicely, palatable dishes, or very nice table, chair and so on and so on. But after all, this is eating. And similarly, living condition. Formerly people used to live very humbly. Now they are living very, very big, big skyscraper building. But that is living. Similarly sex. Formerly also a crude society, also they have sex. The animals, also they have sex. And to make gorgeous arrangement for sex, to make the women easily available or freely available, nicely dressed, this is also simply sex. Similarly defensing. Either you defend with crude weapons or you atom bomb, this is defensing.
Hayagriva: So how are these conditions going to change?
Prabhupada: Change means along with these primary necessities of the body one should understand what is God, what to do for God instead. That is change. That can be done, simply by training.
Hayagriva: But how are they going to change in order to bring about a profound spiritual transformation?
Prabhupada: This is spiritual following. Just like we are doing. We are also not neglecting the bodily necessities of life, but our main business is how to advance in Krsna consciousness. So this is not supported by the state or the leaders of the society. They think they are unnecessary because they are animals. So that is the... If the leaders, yad yad acarati sresthas tad tad eva itarah janah, that is, every leading man accept that this is necessary. Just like we say "No illicit sex." So if the state helps, it can stop immediately. "No meat-eating": the state can immediately do it, "No slaughterhouse." If somebody says that it is enforcement for a person who wants to eat meat and the state has stopped, no. State at least can do this, that state is not going to maintain slaughterhouse. If you want to eat meat, you can kill an animal at your own house, but state is not going to commit these sinful activities, statewise. That is changed in every respect. No more breweries. State cannot maintain the manufacturing of liquor. If anyone individual wants, he can prepare for himself, but he cannot sell, he cannot induce others to take. He can for his personal (indistinct), he can take. In that case, state is giving liberty, "If you want eating meat, so do." But that is not encouragement; that is discouragement. That is Vedic injunction. Vedic injunction is that yes, you can have sex, but get yourself married properly like gentlemen and ladies do. But sex will not be allowed unrestricted intermingling of men and women and prostitution, brothels. That state has to stop. In this way whole thing can be revolutionized, and the society will be completely in human civilization and God consciousness. That is wanted.
Hayagriva: Bergson felt... He was... Bergson was optimistic in that he felt that eventually the mystics, through love, will help mankind back to Godhead.
Prabhupada: He has used that word "back to Godhead"?
Hayagriva: Well, no, but "back to God."
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: I put "head" there.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the real purpose of human life. Nature gives him the opportunity in the evolutionary process to get the human form of body. Now, here is a chance. He can read books, he can read Vedas, he can take instruction from the spiritual master. These opportunities are there. So that should be encouraged. That is human civilization. Simply to keep him in darkness, and that he is body and bodily necessities of life is the only business, it is a very suicidal civilization. That is not civilization. It is animal status of life.
Hayagriva: Within the world Bergson sees nothing but constant, unceasing change. He even sees ego change. He says, "If our existence were composed of separate states with an impassive ego to unite them, for us there would be no duration, for an ego which does not change does not endure, and a psychic state which remains the same so long as it is not replaced by the following state does not endure either." So he sees the psychic state of the individual in the ego and all that the ego contains as cognitively changing.
Prabhupada: This is false ego, that "I am this body." So it has to be changed by education, that "You are not this body." Then when he understands that he is spirit soul, then the activities of the spirit soul begin, mad-bhaktim labhate param. That is stated in Srimad Bhagavad-gita, that first of all he has to understand that he is not this material body; he is spirit soul. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe. Within this body the soul is there, and that soul is Brahman, spiritual. People, if they do not understand this, so they are in the animal status of life. But if he understands that he is not this body, then his struggle for existence, to maintain the body, stops. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. That it is, when he understands that he is not this body, then his unnecessary endeavor to keep the body in comfortable position without the, without executing the business of spiritual life, then he is kept in darkness. So when one understands that he is spirit soul, so how to elevate the spirit soul to the highest perfection, that will be the main business. So that is wanted. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. Then he understands that "Not only I am spirit soul, but everyone is spirit soul," then equal, equipoised. Every spirit soul should be given the chance of perfect understanding, samah sarvesu bhutesu. Then activities of devotional service. If everyone is engaged in devotional service, then he gradually comes to the state of loving God, prema. Prema pumartho mahan. So Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has recommended perfection of human life is how to raise oneself to the platform of loving God. That is perfection. Otherwise it is not perfect society.
Hayagriva: Concerning remembering and forgetting, Bergson writes, "The cerebral mechanism is arranged just so as to drive back into the unconscious"--by unconscious they mean the subconscious--"almost the whole of his past, and to admit beyond the threshold only that which can cast light on the present situation or further the action now being prepared. In short, only that which can give useful work." So that, in other words, man utilizes only those memories or that knowledge which is immediately useful, and in this way man can function in the world. What is the role of Krsna in this, as the arranger of this cerebral mechanism?
Prabhupada: Cerebral mechanism, that is a machine. Just like this microphone is a machine. It helps speaking loudly. It has nothing..., machine has nothing to do with the voice, but it helps the voice louder so we can listen, so far the machine is concerned. Actually the voice is different. Therefore our Vedic sastra is called voice, sruti. So if the sruti, the voice, vibration of this voice is proper, then the machine can help us to understand that. But if there is no voice, what is the use of the machine? Just like dead body: the same brain is there, what is the use? The same ear is there. So it is not the brain that helps; it is the voice, it is the instruction which helps. Therefore we take instruction of Krsna. So that is the Krsna's point. Krsna says, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati. When people becomes rascal, without any God consciousness, and the so-called demonic leaders keep the society in darkness, dharmasya glanir bhavati, at that time, to stop these demons talking nonsense, and to raise the devotees who are interested, Krsna comes. That is Krsna's coming. Then He leaves behind Him instruction of Bhagavad-gita so that His devotees can preach for the benefit of the society. So it is not the brain; it is the voice, the instruction, which is important. So a human being has got this nice machine and he can take. But if the leaders are blind, they do not know what is the use of this brain, then it is useless. (break)
Hayagriva: Concerning remembering and forgetting, we were speaking of the cerebral mechanism. In Bhagavad-gita doesn't Krsna say that He is the arranger of the cerebral mechanism which causes one to remember Him and forget Him? He says, "I bring... I make one remember and one forget."
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. He is the supreme power. He can do that. So if somebody wants to forget Krsna persistently--in spite of Krsna's instruction, devotee's instruction, one does not care, he persists to become a demon--Krsna is within the heart of everyone, so He gives him chance to become more and more so that he completely forgets his relationship with God. That is explained in another place, ksipamy ajasram anta yonisu. In the Sixteenth Chapter. (aside:) You can find out. So that this rascal, life after life, remains a rascal. That is Krsna's punishment, that he is kept in perpetual darkness. But it is the mercy of Krsna's devotee, a Vaisnava, he is more compassionate, that "This rascal, he is in perpetual darkness. Let me try to relieve." Therefore Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, vaisnava thakura tomara kukkura. "Vaisnava devotee, kindly accept me as your dog." Because as Narottama dasa Thakura says, chadiya vaisnava seva: "Unless one who gets the shelter of a Vaisnava, he will perpetually remain in darkness." (aside:) Have you got?
Hari-sauri:
tan aham dvisatah kruran
samsaresu naradhaman
ksipamy ajasram asubhan
asurisv eva yonisu
"Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life."
Prabhupada: They will be punished to forget God, forget. He wants to forget, so apohanam ca, mattah... The brain is there, but Krsna wants that this rascal should be punished to forget God. Then he will be punished more by the material nature, daivi hy esa gunamayi. Maya's business is to punish the demon, so maya keeps him in demonic life so that he may be punished more and more. And Krsna gives intelligence to a devotee, tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam. One who is engaged in devotional service, trying sincerely, from within He is giving instruction, "Do like this. Do like this."
Hayagriva: Can one be forgetful of Krsna eternally?
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: No, but...
Prabhupada: Eternally, it is not possible. Just like a father and son. It may be, circumstantially, the son is separated from the father, but it is not possible to forget eternally. Sometimes he remembers his father. Father is always remembering the son, and father is looking after the opportunity when the son becomes obedient to his order. So there is no question of perpetually.
Hayagriva: That's good news (laughing).
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Regarding karma and transmigration, Bergson writes, "What are we in fact? What is our character if not the condensation of the history that we have lived from our birth, nay, even before our birth, since we bring with us pre-natal dispositions? Doubtless we think with only a small part of our past, but it is with our entire past, including the original bent of our soul that we desire, will and act. Our past, then, as a whole is made manifest to us in its impulse. It is felt in the form of tendency, although a small part of it only is known in the form of idea." That is, although we cannot recall much of the past, the present, our present state, is determined...
Prabhupada: We cannot recall. That is the defect in our life. Therefore the literatures are there to remind us. That opportunity is there in the human form of life to take advantage of this Vedic knowledge which is kept in the literature. Just like Bhagavad-gita or any Vedic literature. Especially Bhagavad-gita is the nutshell of all Vedic knowledge. So we have forgotten. But this forgotten, forgetfulness is not perpetual. He can be reminded and he can come to his real consciousness. That is our Krsna consciousness movement. These rascals, they have forgotten God, Krsna, and they are thinking that "We are the master of everything." The so-called scientists, they are decrying God: "Now we shall do everything independently." This is demonic. So he has to be reminded. Therefore sastras are there, sadhus are there--sadhu, sastra, guru--guru is there, that you are not independent, you are foolishly thinking like that. You are under the clutches of maya. So don't remain in this position, then your life will spoil. Take instruction from Bhagavad-gita. Act accordingly. You will be happy.
Hayagriva: Well he sees that we are what we are today due to all of our activities in the past.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is karma. Karmana, or according to our past karmas, we are in a particular position. So this position can be changed. It is not that it will continue. Therefore Krsna says that "You are suffering on account of your past misdeeds, the reaction, but this suffering is caused on account of your not surrendering unto Me. Now you surrender. I will stop this reaction of...," aham tvam sarva-papebhyo. This offer is already there, but still we do not take advantage. That is our dog's obstinacy, and we are suffering, and we shall continue to suffer.
Hayagriva: From this, Bergson concludes that we are evolving, that we learn from an accumulation of experience, that we cannot, in a sense, repeat the same mistake twice. He writes, "From this survival of the past, it follows that consciousness cannot go through the same state twice. Circumstances may still be the same, but they will act no longer on the same person since they find him in a new moment of his history. Our personality, which is being built up each instant with its accumulated experience, changes without ceasing. Thus our personality shoots, grows and ripens without ceasing."
Prabhupada: No. There is no cessation because the soul is eternal, so his consciousness is also eternal. But it is changing according to the circumstances, association, time, place, and the party changes. Therefore good association required. Sadhu-sanga. It is called sadhu-sanga, association with the devotees. By good association the consciousness can be changed from material to spiritual. That is the Krsna consciousness movement, how to change the consciousness from matter to Krsna. So that requires guidance. The guidance is Krsna's instruction and the spiritual master. Krsna is so kind that he has given us sastra and the sadhu and guru. So if we take advantage of that then we become reformed, our life becomes successful.
Hayagriva: There seems to be an inconsistency here when he says, "our personality, which is being built up with its accumulated experience." Now if personality is determined by experience and if death means a forgetting of our past experience, then a new personality must emerge when we take on a new body.
Prabhupada: No. The..., your deeds in the past you may forget, but Krsna does not forget. He therefore gives you chance that "You wanted to do this, now here is the opportunity, you do it."
Hayagriva: At death it's said that we take the mind...
Prabhupada: Death means the body is changed.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: But the soul is not changed. So soul continues with his reaction of past deeds, and even though he forgets what he has done in the past, Krsna is there. He reminds that "You wanted to do this. Do it now."
Hayagriva: The person is the same but the false personality changes then?
Prabhupada: Yes. So this personality can change to become perfect if he follows the instruction of Krsna.
Hayagriva: Because obviously, say in my next life, I'll be a different personality.
Prabhupada: Yes. According to your work, this karmana daiva netrena, by..., the body will be selected, not by you but by superior authority, that "This man has acted like this, so he should get this body."
Hayagriva: If at death the soul takes the mind, intelligence, and ego with it...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...into a new body... If that's the case, isn't it possible for the mind to actually remember its past lives?
Prabhupada: Sometimes he remembers. There are many instances, just like Bharata Maharaja. He got the body of an animal, but by the grace of Krsna that he remembered everything of his past life. Therefore Krsna said, mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam, "That I am." Bharata Maharaja's remembrance, it is due to Krsna's mercy. He was a devotee, but he neglected his devotional service on account for being too much attached to a small deer. So at the time of death he was thinking of the deer, he got the body of a deer. But Krsna, out of His great mercy, He reminded him that "You are in such a position now. You have become a deer. So don't forget Me, My service." So he did that. He was always staying with devotees, that "By my fault I have got this body, so let me remain in this life with the devotees." So next life he took birth in a nice brahmana's family, but due to his past experience, that "I fell down," he remained just like a dull brain, not associating with anyone, that "I cannot fall again." So even in the next birth Krsna can remind him of his past birth and guide him.
Hayagriva: Now if, as Bergson says, our personality, which by definition would include the mind, the intelligence, the ego, and the soul also, as a person...,
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...if it shoots, grows and ripens without ceasing, then why or how could the personality or the individual jiva soul return to a lower life-form? That is to say, how could a greater experience regress to a lesser experience?
Prabhupada: The..., everything is calculated at the time of death. That is nature's process. That I was talking in the morning, that these boys, they are too much addicted to these water sports. Twenty-four hours they are indulging in this water sport. They are creating a mentality to become aquatic animal. So naturally, at the time of death, he will think of all these things and nature will give him a body. Yes. That you cannot check. After death you are completely under nature's control. You cannot dictate. That these rascal do not understand. Therefore they, "Finish this business. There is no life after death. That's all."
Hayagriva: Now how was it that a great personality like Indra, with his mind, intelligence, and ego all intact, how is it he could become a toad?
Prabhupada: Yes, you can become. So long you are materially existing, your thoughts are under the modes of material mature. So sometimes the thoughts are in the modes of goodness, sometimes the thoughts are in the modes of passion, and sometimes they are in the modes of ignorance and act accordingly. So up and down it is going on. So in order to keep yourself on the standard platform, one should engage himself in devotional service. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita:
mam ca avyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena yah sevate
sa gunan samatitya etan
brahma-bhuyaya...
(aside:) Find out this verse. Mam ca avyabhicarena bhakti-yogena yah se... (pause)
Hari-sauri:
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
"One who engages in full devotional service, and who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman."
Prabhupada: Yes. So one has to keep himself on the Brahman platform, then there is no difficulties.
Hayagriva: No..., no karmic regression.
Prabhupada: Therefore we are trying to keep everyone twenty-four hours engaged in Krsna consciousness.
Hayagriva: That, that would be what Bergson would call creative evolution.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He saw, he saw change as maturation. He says, "We are seeking only the precise meaning that our consciousness gives to this word 'exist,' and we find that, for a conscious being, to exist is to change, to change is to mature, to mature is to go on creating oneself endlessly."
Prabhupada: So, you want..., you are struggling, creating for the highest position, but Krsna is giving you the idea. This is the highest position, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, that "You give up your so-called positions, you simply surrender unto Him..., Me, and I shall give you all protection." This is the idea. But he denies, and that because he thinks Krsna is ordinary human being, "Oh, how He can give me the topmost position?" So he goes on, he..., with his plan-making, so that... But this plan-making, if he is actually advancing, then after many, many births he will come to that conclusion that everything is Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah. But this happens after he is struggling for many, many births. So best thing is that instead of waiting many, many births, if we take Krsna's instruction immediately, we become perfect. Why you should continue in ignorance, unsettled, and making plan? That is another foolishness.
Hayagriva: The bond. It's the bondage of habit.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: The bondage...
Prabhupada: Then you have to change. Therefore Krsna's instruction is there, that "Do like this, do like this."
Hayagriva: In Creative Evolution Bergson writes, "We may conclude then that individuality is never perfect and that it is often difficult, sometimes impossible, to tell what is an individual and what is not, but that life nevertheless manifests a search for individuality as if it strove to constitute systems naturally isolated, naturally closed." A search for...
Prabhupada: (aside:) You have given the key?
Hayagriva: What does he mean by "search for individuality"? Isn't the individual always there?
Prabhupada: It is no search. We are individual, always. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gita in the Second Chapter, that we are individual now, we are individual..., were in the past, and we shall continue to remain individual in future. So the individuality is always there, but the living entity, we, we are not as big as Krsna. Our intelligence is very meager, is very small, so, so therefore we forget what is our real constitutional position. So to bring to our original constitutional position the..., Krsna and His instructions are there. The individuality is always, past, present and future, but when we forget Krsna, make our own plan, then we suffer, and when we utilize our individuality properly, little independence, and follow Krsna's instruction as His servant, then our life is perfect. (break)
Hayagriva: This is the continuation of Bergson.
Prabhupada: Now, the Mayavadi philosophers, they, possessing poor fund of knowledge, they want to kill this individuality. But that is not possible. Krsna says that you shall remain individual perpetually. There is no question of stopping. Mamaivamso jiva-bhuta jiva-loka sanatanah. They, perpetually you are individual, God is also individual. So to..., killing the individuality is not possible, but this is a false notion that "I kill my individuality and become one with God, then I will be perfect." That is not possible. You cannot become one with God. You keep your individuality. So even though if for the time being you think that "I am now merged in the existence of God," but on account of our individuality you shall again fall down.
Hayagriva: And there's no need for a search for individuality.
Prabhupada: Individual, he is always individual. Perpetually.
Hayagriva: Yes. Concerning the creation, Bergson speaks of impulsion and attraction, and he says, "The causal relation between God and the world is seen as an attraction when regarded from below, as an impulsion or a contact when regarded from above. Therefore we perceive God as an efficient, that is a beginning, cause or as a final cause, according to the point of view." That is, we can see things either..., the creation coming from God or moving toward God, depending on our viewpoint.
Prabhupada: No. Creation is..., God is always there. Before the creation and when the creation is finished, there is God. So God is not one of the creation. In the creation there are so many things coming out, so God is not one of the products of creation because He is created. He was before creation and He will exist to continue after annihilation. This is the Vedic knowledge.
Hayagriva: Yes. This is, this is what he is saying.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: That God is the alpha, the beginning, and the omega, the end, depending on our point of view. He also says in the middle.
Prabhupada: Not, not of the point of view. It is always there.
Hayagriva: Oh.
Prabhupada: But because we are imperfect, you are thinking like that, that individually we are imperfect. God is always there, and this cosmic manifestation is temporary creation. It is a chance to the individual soul to develop his consciousness, but if he does not take, again the annihilation, he remains in unconscious position, and when again there is creation he comes to consciousness. So this is going on.
Hayagriva: He says, "If life realizes a plan, it ought to manifest a greater harmony the further it advances, just as the house shows a better and better idea of the architect as stone is set upon stone. If, on the contrary, the unity of life is to be found solely in the beginning in the impetus that pushes it along the road of time, the harmony is not in front but behind. The unity is given at the start as an impulsion, not placed at the end as an attraction." But he's...
Prabhupada: So this can be utilized. Suppose an artist is trying to improve this building. So if he takes instruction from an experienced artist how to improve, then it becomes easier, and if he tries himself, it takes long, long time. He should take the artistic idea from a person who is perfect in artistic idea, then his work will make progress very swiftly. Otherwise he is already imperfect, he may think "This is better," but it may not be better because he is imperfect. So he has to take instruction from a perfect person, then the progress will be very swift. (break)
Hayagriva: Well, this can be taken from the individual point of view or from the idea that God is the architect of the universe. But according to the system of yugas, there is a greater harmony in the beginning, and as the universe winds down, this harmony disintegrates--Treta-, Dvapara-, and Kali-yuga. Yet there's a plan.
Prabhupada: That's, what is called, that is the nature. First, first of all something is created, then it develops, it stays for some time, then it becomes old, dwindling, and then finished. This is called six changes of sarvika (?), of anything material. But a spirit soul is not material. He is not subjected to all these changes. This is our practical experience. The body is changing but spirit soul is the same. He remembers that "I had this body, a child's body. I have this young boy's body." He remembers; therefore he is eternal. The change is taking place of the body, so therefore the soul has nothing to do with the bodily changes. He has got his perpetual duty, perpetual activity--that is devotional service. So he has to be trained up in that perpetual duty, then he will stop this process of bodily changes, he will remain in his eternal body, spiritual body. That is going back to home, back to Godhead.
Hayagriva: So the creative evolution must necessarily be the evolution of the soul.
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: No.
Prabhupada: Soul is eternal. Soul is ever-existing. There is no question of evolution or..., that it is according to the body. So long he is in the material existence and bodily concept of life, he is thinking that a better body is evolution and a lower body... But if his consciousness is changed, then there is no chance of changing, different bodies. He remains in his eternal body.
Hayagriva: Well the basic contradiction, it seems, between Bergson and the Vedic version is that of the evolution of the universe.
Prabhupada: Evolution of universe means, I have already explained, that anything material, it goes under six changes. So this universe, since its birth, it is increasing in volume. So that is material change. It is nothing to the, to do with the spiritual. Spirit, the soul, as we have got soul within this body, similarly akara, Garbhodakasayi Visnu is the soul of this universe. He is not changing; the universe is changing, the body is changing.
Hayagriva: Bergson's theory seems to be that there's greater harmony being realized the further life advances or the further the universe goes on.
Prabhupada: Harmony is there, certainly. That harmony, just like the child's body is harmonically changing into boy's body, harmonical changes, there is harmony. But the change is there.
Hayagriva: So there's harmony at the beginning and harmony at the end?
Prabhupada: Everything is in harmony. That is God's law. Everything is in harmony. Material or spiritual, everything is in harmony.
Hayagriva: So if everything is in harmony, then evolution has an incidental meaning. The meaning is just...
Prabhupada: The evolution is all harmony. Just like from aquatics one has to become insect. From aquatic one has to accept the body of plants and trees, then he has to accept the bodies of insects. This is harmony. Changing is there, but it is in harmony. Now, when one comes to accept the body of human being, then his consciousness is developed. Now he can accept, because he has got greater freedom than the animal, so he has to make his choice whether he is going to stop this evolutionary process or he wants to remain in this evolutionary process. So if he takes instruction of Krsna, then he can stop this botheration of evolution, and if he does not take, then he remains. (aside:) Find out this verse, asraddadhanah purusa dharmasyasya parantapa. What is it?
Hari-sauri:
asraddhadhanah purusa
dharmasyasya parantapa
aprapya mam nivartante
mrtyu-samsara-vartmani
"Those who are not faithful on the path of devotional service cannot attain Me, O conqueror of foes, but return to birth and death in this material world."
Prabhupada: That's all. That is the chance of this human form of life. The, everything is there. If he takes the standard instruction and makes his choice whether he shall continue this perpetual, this subordinate position under the laws of nature or he should become free by going back to home, back to Godhead--that choice is there. So Krsna's instruction is there, and simply following the instruction one can become completely detached from this cycle of birth and death, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti... Simply by understanding Krsna or Krsna's instruction, this body will be ended, that is described. But after ending this body, no more material body. That is perfection.
Hayagriva: Sometimes Bergson sounds like a Sophist in his contention. He says, "Man might be considered the reason for the existence of the entire organization of life on our planet." Is man the end of evolution on this planet, or is he just simply the highest form of life now present on the planet?
Prabhupada: He is not highest form of life.
Hayagriva: On this planet, he is speaking.
Prabhupada: On this planet also there are different types of men. Not all men are the same position, same as there are intelligent person, there is a foolish person, there is a rich person, there is...
Hayagriva: He is speaking of men in general, everybody, all mankind.
Prabhupada: All mankind, what does he mean all? Everyone is individual. What does he mean? This is not very good, intelligent.
Hayagriva: Yes. He sees the material worlds as being isolated. He says, "There is then a bond between the worlds, but this bond may be regarded as infinitely loose in comparison with the mutual dependence which unites the parts of the same world among ourselves," excuse me, "which unites the parts of the same world among themselves. So that it is not artificially for reasons of mere convenience that we isolate our solar system. Nature itself invites us to isolate it." So this, this calls to mind the image of a prison house. The isolation of the world, as far as man is concerned, is isolation imposed by material nature on the conditioned.
Prabhupada: He is isolated. He is thinking in the wrong way. Just like in the prison house every prisoner, every, every criminal is different from other criminal. So everyone has to suffer the consequence of his criminal activities, so every individual person is suffering or enjoying according to his past deeds. So there cannot be any combination. Then we forget the individuality. That is not possible.
Hayagriva: We feel, we feel isolation as individuals, and not only is there isolation as individuals but we feel isolated on this planet. Man cannot communicate with beings on other planets.
Prabhupada: That is his imperfectness. What is the use of having communications with other planet? The other planets are also like these. They are individual persons. So what is the utility of communicating with the other planets? What is the utility? What does he mean by it?
Hayagriva: Well, man has always had a desire--basically it's a desire for God--but a desire to communicate with something outside of this world, outside of this earth, something higher.
Prabhupada: The higher principle is there, Bhagavad-gita, Krsna. Why does he not communicate with Him? Then he will, that will make him perfect. What is the use of...? Just like that a tree, it has got many leaves, many branches. So if one leaf communicates with other leaf, that will not help him. But if water is poured on the root of the tree, then everyone will participate, sarva hano 'cyutejya. So if we communicate with God, Krsna, then automatically we understand other things. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati. Simply by knowing Krsna we can understand everything.
Hayagriva: But they have sent rockets off into space and by...
Prabhupada: That is childish. I have already explained.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is childish.
Hayagriva: But...
Prabhupada: They cannot go.
Hayagriva: By use of, what is this radio, what do they call it? By radio waves they try to listen to messages from outer space.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but what benefit we will get? Suppose it is not very important thing. If you hear how the persons in other plant are talking, so what benefit we will get?
Hayagriva: Is this isolation a characteristic only of the lower and middle planetary systems? In the higher planetary system, systems, is there so much isolation?
Prabhupada: Isolation is always there. Even in this world there is isolation, even in animals. The birds, the crows, they remain together, and the swans remain together. So there is isolation between the swan and the crows. So this isolation will continue because everyone is under different modes of material nature. There are three modes of material nature. Multiply three by three, it becomes nine. Nine by nine, then it becomes eighty-one. So, prakrteh kriyamanani. So according to the association of different qualities the isolation is there, but when they come to Krsna consciousness, spiritual platform, so there is no more isolation. When everyone is engaged in the service of the Lord, there is no isolation.
Hayagriva: Bergson sees the universe itself as expanding and evolving. He writes, "For the universe is not made but is being made continually."
Prabhupada: Yes, we also say that, that universes came from the breathing of Maha-Visnu. So just like we can imagine from breathing with the air, something may come very minute form, then it develops.
Hayagriva: Bigger then?
Prabhupada: Bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger.
Hayagriva: Expanding.
Prabhupada: One may be surprised that how this universe has come from the breathing of Visnu, but actually it is so. If we accept that the universe is increasing, length and breadth, then the universe may come like particles and then begin to develop. That is the process we see in our child birth. In the womb it becomes just like a small pea, then it develops, develops as either elephant or man, the body develops. So everything material, it is created, it is very small, that a seed, very small, but it develops a big tree, banyan tree. That is the way of nature. So that's a fact that the universe is increasing. Not perpetually; to a certain extent. Then stop, again it becomes dwindled, and then it is finished.
Hayagriva: Yes. He didn't know. He says, "It is growing, perhaps indefinitely." "Perhaps," he says.
Prabhupada: Perhaps is no knowledge.
Hayagriva: By the addition of new worlds.
Prabhupada: That is all imagination.
Hayagriva: There's no way to know.
Prabhupada: Poor fund of knowledge.
Hayagriva: But new worlds are being added, but not indefinitely.
Prabhupada: No, new worlds added and old worlds subtracted. That is going on, bhutva bhutva praliyate.
Hayagriva: The present-day material scientists, astronomers, state..., one of the theories is that the universe is expanding, that the systems are going outward into space and are moving proportionately further and further from one another, just like raisins rising in dough. When raisin bread is in the oven, the raisins, they go further and further and further apart as the dough expands. So is this...?
Prabhupada: That expansion goes to a certain extent. Then the expansion stops, then it becomes dwindling and then finished.
Hayagriva: Well then Bergson is actually incorrect in saying that the universe is evolving toward some grand harmony.
Prabhupada: That is his imagination. What does he mean by this harmony? Just like I am increasing, your body is increasing, your child's body is increasing. So everybody's body is increasing, so where is the, what does he mean by harmony? It is increasing and it will dwindle and it will finish. That is material nature. If you say this process of increasing and dwindling is going on, that is harmony, then there is no harm, but the, individually everything is going under this process of increasing and decreasing and at the end finished.
Hayagriva: He gives and example that's something similar to the Vedic. He speaks of "a center from which worlds shoot out like rockets in a fireworks display, provided, however, that I do not present this center as a thing but as a continuity of shooting out. God thus defined has nothing of the already made. He, that is God, is unceasing life, action, and freedom."
Prabhupada: It is just like a wheel. A wheel is rotating. There are spokes, there are rims, there is a hub, and in the center, what is they call that, that supports the hub?
Hayagriva: Axle.
Prabhupada: Spindle, axle, axle. So He is the axle. So the round is going on, but He is the center. Everything is going on but He is the center. Aham adir hi..., what is called? Devanam. Aham sarvasya prabhavo. So the central point is God, and other things are just like a big wheel, and the big wheel has got so many parts. The, it has got the rim, it has got the spokes, it is going in force, but the axle is the same, always in the center.
Hayagriva: Now this is the last point, and I want to just for the record to correct this on Syamasundara's presentation because you took exception to this, and I believe that it was..., you wouldn't take exception to it. I don't know. It says Bergson refers to the "essential function of the universe as being that of a machine for the making of gods."
Prabhupada: That is his misconception. That I have explained, the wheel. The wheel is going on. The wheel has got different parts but it is resting on the axle.
Hayagriva: No, but is the universe a machine for the making of gods in the sense that it's a vehicle to make people Krsna conscious?
Prabhupada: No, this is wrong. The machine, the wheel is already depending on the axle. Axle is already there. Without axle, the wheel cannot move.
Hayagriva: Not for the creation of God, not for the making of God.
Prabhupada: Then?
Hayagriva: But for the making of small "g" gods, like demigods. You once said...
Prabhupada: Demigods are already there. Just like in the same example, in the wheel the different parts, they are already there.
Hayagriva: So there's no question of the making of gods?
Prabhupada: No, no. That is a wrong theory.
Hayagriva: But when a man becomes Krsna conscious, could you say that he has become like a god or godlike?
Prabhupada: He, that godlessness is diseased condition. So when he becomes in normal condition, that is Krsna consciousness. His normal life is Krsna consciousness. That is mukti. Mukti means liberation. What is that liberation? A man is suffering from fever. So if the fever is stopped by medicine and treatment, then he becomes in normal health. It does not mean that he, he changes his constitution. He is the same man, but on account of fever he was talking nonsense, in convul..., what is called, convulsion?
Hayagriva: Convulsions.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: Delirium.
Prabhupada: Delirium, yes. He is talking all nonsense, this diseased condition. So he has to cured from the diseased condition, then he will understand, "Oh, this is my position," brahma-bhutah prasannatma, he becomes immediately joyful, "Oh, I am talking in delirium, nonsense." This is...
Hayagriva: So instead of a machine for the making of gods, it's more like a hospital for the curing of souls.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, it is hospital. Krsna consciousness movement means curing the disease. That is described in Narada-bhakti-sutra, sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam, nirmalam. Nirmalam means purified. So when he becomes free from all this designation... The designation begins with this body, and the body accidentally born in Europe, he thinks, "I am a European." Born in America, "I am an American." Born in a Christian family, "I am Christian." He is born in Hindu family, "I am that." That is all misconception. His real position is that "I am part and parcel of Krsna, eternal servant." Then he is free from all. That is, that is beginning of..., that is brahma-bhutah, beginning of spiritual life. So nothing, not that a man can be made to God. He is not God; he is part and parcel of God. He has to simply understand his position. That is mukti. He is working under different impression, that "I am this body." Just like the other day with, concerning the philosopher Huxley. He is a philosopher but he is proud of becoming Englishman. Did you not say?
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: So this is going on. So-called philosophy, scientific advancement, but the central mistake is there that he is thinking in terms of his body. That has to be corrected. Then it will be pure consciousness and normal life.
Hayagriva: Now let me get this right. He doesn't say that it's a machine for the making..., that man becomes... He's not saying that man becomes God. He never says that.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: But that a man may evolve to a state like unto the demigods. Is that a possibility?
Prabhupada: What is demigod? That, there is a difference between demigod and a man. A demigod is in the better position, that's all. Just like a high court judge and layman. Both of them human being, but the high court judge in a better position, that's all, but both of them human being.
Hayagriva: But that's not the purpose of the universe.
Prabhupada: Everything is the... I am human being, you are human being, but you are in better position. So demigods, they are, on account of their higher qualities, they are in sattva-guna, and here raja-guna, tamo-guna. So..., but as soon we are not subjected to any guna, either sattva-guna, raja-guna, tamo-guna, we are transcendental. So if we keep ourselves in that transcendental position, that is engaged in devotional service, then we are above this all, sattva-guna, raja-guna, tamo-guna. That is wanted. Then that is called mukti, muktir hitvanyatha rupam. We are contaminated or conditioned on account of association with these three modes of material nature, and if we keep ourself aloof from the association of three modes then we are mukta, we are liberated. That is devotional service.
Hayagriva: Higher, higher than the demigods?
Prabhupada: Yes. What is the demigods? They are also rotting in this material world. So devotees are not concerned how to become a demigod. They do not care. That is said by Prabhodananda Sarasvati: vidhi-mahendradis ca kitayate. Vidhi means Lord Brahma, and mahendra means the king of heaven, Indra. So he says, "I think this Brahma and Indra, Candra, the demigods just like as good as the germs and small insects." He says that. Vidhi-mahendradis. You have to attain such a position that you think this Brahma and Indra and demigods, they are as good as the insects. Vidhi-mahendradis ca kita. Kita means a small insect. So actually that is the position. Everyone has got a different type of body according to his karma, either Brahma's body or ant's body, so he is under material laws. So that is not the position of freedom. One has to become above these material laws. That is brahma-bhutah prasannatma. So anyone who has actually attained that position, what is the importance of Brahma's body or Indra's body? He is not concerned with the body, just, therefore devotees are not interested to be elevated to the higher planetary system in the heaven. They are not interested. They are interested going back to home, back to Godhead. So devotee's position is different. Just like we can see practically our Krsna consciousness movement, we have got so many members. We are not perfect, but still it is not our ambition how to become a Rockefeller or big rich man. This is not our ambition. Is it our ambition, like that? We don't care for this Rockefeller or big, big man. We want how to become a perfect devotee of Krsna. You can see practically. Our endeavors, activities, are not like the karmis'. The karmis are trying "How many motorcars I will possess. How many buildings I shall possess." We do not mind, but we are constructing temples. That is for Krsna's service. We are getting money by Krsna's mercy. You are envious of that money for Krsna's service. Not to that to make a big bank balance and declare that "Now I have become as good as Rockefeller," or this or that. We are not interested. So a devotee is not at all interested to be promoted in the higher planetary system or become demigod. That is not their business. Kita janma hau yatha tuya dasa. Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that bahir-mukha brahma-janme nahi mora asa, "I don't care to become a Brahma, I, better I shall prepare to become a small ant in the house of a devotee." This is our ambition. I shall be very much satisfied remaining a small ant in the house of a devotee, a dog of a devotee, but I don't want, forgetting Krsna, to become like Brahma, Indra, Candra. This is Vaisnava philosophy.
Hayagriva: So that's the end of Bergson. (end)
Philosophy Discussions ALEXAND.HAY
Samuel Alexander
Hayagriva: Samuel Alexander basically wrote one major book, called Space, Time and Deity.
Prabhupada: Space, Time and...?
Hayagriva: Deity.
Prabhupada: Deity.
Hayagriva: And in this book he defines religion. He says, "Religion leans on metaphysics for the justification of its conviction of the reality of its object, God. Philosophy leans on religion to justify it, and calling the possessor of Deity by the religious name of 'God.' The two methods of approach, that is philosophy and religion, are therefore complementary."
Prabhupada: Hmm. That's right. Religion, when it is combined with philosophy, that makes sense, and religion without philosophy is sentiment. It has no practical value.
Hayagriva: For Alexander, religion is like what...
Prabhupada: We should say in this connection that Bhagavad-gita is religion and philosophy combined together.
Hayagriva: For Ale...
Prabhupada: The religion is God worship, and everything explained there, just like immortality of the soul, that is philosophy. So it is combination of religion and philosophy that makes sense.
Hayagriva: For Alexander religion is like hunger, and God is the food for that hunger.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He writes, "The religious which sets us in search of God is our groping out to the reality which is God. This religious appetite may either be stirred in us directly, by the impact of the world with its tendency to Deity, or it may first be felt by us as a need of our nature." So the desire or hunger for God may be motivated either externally or internally.
Prabhupada: That I explained this morning partially, that actually we are seeking love of God beginning with the body. That I have explained in this morning, that we love this body because I live within this body. As soon as I give up this body, the body is neglected, it has no value, throw it. So, so long the living soul is there, the body has value. So why the living soul is valuable? Because he is the part and parcel of God. So God is there also within this body. This is explained is the Bhagavad-gita. There are two living entities. One is..., they all..., both of them are known as ksetra-jna. One ksetra-jna only knows about his body, and the other ksetra-jna knows all other bodies. That is God and the living entity. So the body is important because the living entities are there. The subordinate living entity is the part of the supreme living entity. So ultimately the conclusion is, because a supreme living entity is in the body or within the universe, therefore we have manufactured so many activities of love and society, friendship, nationality, community. Ultimately, when it culminates with love of God, then it is perfect. So the conclusion is that we are searching after the platform where God is love, but it is going on, I mean to say, by degrees, one after another, in different names.
Hayagriva: Alexander despairs of the speculative method as a means for connecting with God, and he also feels that proofs of God's existence in nature are nonexistence, are nonexistent. If such a God is to be identified with the object of worship, that is to say we shouldn't worship God in nature. But how can God be known? For him God can be known by experience. Nor can we prove the existence of God, whether worshipable or not, except on the basis of experience.
Prabhupada: This is natural. This is just like the other day I was saying that on the Hawaii Island we are standing, we know that the proprietor, the government, is there. So just after few yards there is the sea. Then we can conjecture: if the land has the proprietor, the sea has also proprietor. We have not seen who is the proprietor of the land, or the governor of the land. Similarly, there is a governor, proprietor, of the sea and the sky, but we have not seen. That does not mean there is no proprietor.
Hayagriva: Now...
Prabhupada: By see, by exp..., by our present experience we can guess the experience which you have not actually experienced. As we see that everything has got I... I am the proprietor of this body, he is the proprietor of this house, he is the proprietor of that land, he is the proprietor..., that there must be a proprietor of the sea. This is common sense. And that is God. The proprietor of the sun, the proprietor of the moon, the sky, that is God. That is described in the Vedic literature. It is said that the moon is the mind of God, the sun is the eyes of God, the land is the foot of God, the water is the semina of God. Everything is described.
Hayagriva: So God can be seen in nature.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not only nature. This is the beginning of realizing. This is impersonal. But there is person at the background. Just like we do not see..., we know that there is one governor, proprietor of the Hawaii Island. We have not seen. But when we see him, he is person. This is the conclusion. Similarly, so long we are not competent to see God, we can understand, "This is God's hand, this is God's heart, this is His..., God's mind, this is God's eyes." But when we are competent we can see regularly, "Here, here is God, face to face." That requires qualification. Because I did not see the governor of Hawaii is that he is not a person, he is imperson--that is foolishness. When I become competent to see, qualified to see the governor, you see he is a person.
Hayagriva: Alexander distinguishes between what he calls deity and God Himself. For him deity is how it feels to be divine. Now deity for him is a relative term. It is the next highest level of existence. For instance, for an ant, a dog may be a deity; for a dog, a man may be a deity; for a man, a demigod may be a deity. He says, "For any level of existence, deity is the next higher empirical quality."
Prabhupada: Hmm.
Hayagriva: "It is therefore a variable quality, and as the world grows in time, deity changes with it. On each level a new quality looms ahead, which plays to it the part of deity. However, God is the being which possesses Deity in full." That is to say God is always one step ahead of every creature.
Prabhupada: They do not know the science of God, but as philosopher they are suggesting the method. That is nice. Just like for ant, a bird is deity; for a bird, a cat is deity; for a cat, a dog is deity. So in this way, according to the position one selects the deity. But if you go on searching out, when you find out somebody that he has no any, anyone to worship... The ant has to worship the bird, bird has to worship the cat, cat has to worship the so on, so on. In this way, when you come to a person who hasn't got to worship anybody, He is God. That is sense. In the lower stage there is another, higher living being than the lower living being, but in this way searching out, when you come to a point that there is this person who hasn't got to worship anybody ... That is explained in the Vedic literature:
isvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
anadir adir govindah
sarva-karana-karanam
He is worshipable by everyone. Therefore Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya: "Everyone has got higher than him for worship, but I have nothing to worship. I am the Supreme, mattah parataram. No..., there is no more superior authority than Me." Then He is God. So long one has superior authority, he is not God. He is subordinate. But when he comes to a person who has no more superior than Him, then He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is Krsna.
Hayagriva: Although Alexander himself tries to describe God in philosophical terms...
Prabhupada: Then his philosophy is right, that an ant's god is a bird; bird's god..., like that. So when he finds, comes to a person who has no more god, then He is Supreme God.
Hayagriva: But he feels that ultimately God is beyond description. He says...
Prabhupada: No. Why? We have, this, this is description.
Hayagriva: Yes, but he's giving a description, or attempting to give a philosophical definition.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, this is right description, that you find deity in different stages, but when you come to a person that He has no more deity, then He is God.
Hayagriva: He says even the description...
Prabhupada: You don't find in the life of Krsna that He is worshiping any other God.
Hayagriva: He worships no-one.
Prabhupada: No-one. There is... Therefore He is God.
Hayagriva: Nor does He meditate.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: Nor does He meditate.
Prabhupada: Meditate of Himself. The Mayavadi has taken like that. But He has no more, anybody higher than Him, so He has to meditate upon Himself.
Hayagriva: He does meditate upon Himself.
Prabhupada: Just to teach us. In the, as a family man, He in the morning He was meditating.
Hayagriva: Oh.
Prabhupada: Yes. Grhastha. So He was meditating upon Himself. (break)
Hari-sauri:
arjuna uvaca
param brahma param dhama
pavitram paramam bhavan
purusam sasvatam divyam
adi-devam ajam vibhum
ahus tvam rsayah sarve
devarsir naradas tatha
asito devalo vyasah
svayam caiva bravisi me
"Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal Divine Person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages, such as Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa, proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."
Prabhupada: Yes. Finished. "All authorities accept, I realize, and You personally say." Then what evidence more? Hm? What is the possible evidence? No evidence, finished. "I personally experience, You personally say, and the authorities accept You. Finished." Things should be simplified. This is...
Hayagriva: Meanwhile Alexander is saying, uh, he seems to conceive of God in a universal form. He says, "Now the body of God is the whole universe, and there is no body outside His."
Prabhupada: That is experimented in the Bhagavad-gita for men like Alexander and company. Arjuna requested that Krsna to show His universal form, because he knew that "I am accepting Krsna as the Supreme, but there are many persons with poor fund of knowledge, they may not accept." Therefore he requested Krsna to show him the universal form. That He showed, so that there is another proof for person like Mr. Alexander and company. The, in the Eleventh Chapter, the universal form is very nicely explained. But the universal form was shown by Krsna; therefore Krsna is original. Universal form is not original; it was manifested by Krsna. Therefore Krsna's natural form is Krsna. The universal form is a feature of Him. God... That, that is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, aham sarvasya prabhavah. Find out this verse.
Hari-sauri:
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise, who know this perfectly, engage in My devotional service and worship Me..."
Prabhupada: So "everything emanates from Me" mean the universal form also emanate from. So iti matva bhajante mam: "One who understand Me, he, he becomes a Krsna devotee." Iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-saman(vitah), that He is the origin of universal form also; then he becomes a Krsna devotee.
Hayagriva: He sees God's... (break) Alexander sees God's Deity as being different from others in that it is infinite... (break) This is the continuation of Alexander that was interrupted due to the defective tape. A God..., uh, Alexander considers God's Deity as differing from that of others in being infinite, and he says, "God's body..."
Prabhupada: This, this, this sense should be explained. Because God is infinite, He has infinite Deities also. That is infiniteness. He is presented as Deity; that is infinitely of varieties. That is infiniteness. Why he is sticking to one Deity? That is his not understanding the meaning of what is infinite. That is explained in the Brahma-samhita, advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam. Ananta-rupam: He has Deity infinitely. That is infinity. Because He is infinite, He has no Deity--that is not real conception. He is infinite and He has got infinite Deity forms.
Hayagriva: He says, "God's body, being the whole universe of space.time, is the source of the categories but not itself subject to them."
Prabhupada: Yes. So if God is Deity, He is also not subject to these created living being. That is condemned. When one thinks God's Deity as one of the deities within this material world, he is condemned as mudha. Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam: "Because I appear just like a human being, the rascals, asses, they think of Me as ordinary human."
Hayagriva: Now in this book Space, Time and Deity, on page 380, Alexander writes... Alexander takes the Aristotelian view of God in saying, "There is no reciprocal action from God, for though we speak as we inevitably must in human terms of God's response to us, there is no direct experience of that response except through our own feeling that devotion to God, or worship, carries with it its own satisfaction."
Prabhupada: That is his imperfectness. God is omnipotent. He comes before Krsna, er, Arjuna, and He speaks Bhagavad-gita. So because he has no advanced knowledge, he cannot understand how God, omnipotent, all-powerful, can come and speak with His devotee. That is his poor fund of knowledge.
Hayagriva: Yes, that...
Prabhupada: If God is omnipotent, why He cannot come and talk with His devotee? Then where is the omnipotency? These rascals cannot understand.
Hayagriva: That was...
Prabhupada: There is no meaning of omnipotency if God cannot come and talk with His devotee.
Hayagriva: Because they have no experience, they think that...
Prabhupada: That means poor fund of knowledge. The knowledge is not imperfect. They are talking of God omnipotent, and He cannot talk with His devotee. Just see. He is restricted by his own law, by his own experience. He is such a fool.
Hayagriva: This was also Aristotle's view. He said it's foolish for, he says man directs love toward an object that can reciprocate love.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Therefore it's foolish to love Zeus because Zeus does not extend his love to man. This was the Aristotelian view, that there's no reciprocation.
Prabhupada: No, Zeus? Zeus I, I don't follow.
Hayagriva: Oh, Zeus is a, the Greek God, Greek name for God.
Prabhupada: He reciprocates to the advanced devotee. Just like it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purva... One who is in full love with God, He talks with him. He does not talk with ordinary rascals. And in the Brahma-samhita it is said, premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti: one who has developed love of God, such person always sees God within his heart. So it is a question of Just like Krsna says, that "I am talking to you because you are My devotee," bhakto 'si. Why God should talk with nondevotee? He has no business. Just like king, he talks with his immediate officials, minister. He does not talk with the street man. How you can expect? How this street man can express that "I want to talk with the king or the president"? There is no question. He talks. He talks with the qualified devotees, not with others.
Hayagriva: Wasn't there also something He says, that "As you approach Me...?"
Prabhupada: Yes. Actually just like you are talking, you can talk with God also. These gopis in Vrndavana, in everything they are playing with Krsna. Mother Yasoda is binding Krsna just like ordinary child. But these are not happening ordinarily. That the Bhagavata says, that "What this gopi Yasoda did her past life that the Supreme Lord is sucking her breast?" So you cannot expect that the dealings as God is doing with mother Yasoda, Maharaja Nanda, the gopis. Therefore we have to be qualified to that position to deal with God. That another place that,
ittham satam brahma-sukhanubhutya
dasyam gatanam para-daivatena
mayasritanam nara-darakena
sakam vijahruh krta-punya-punjah
These boys who are playing with Krsna, they have amassed their pious activities for many, many lives, now they have come to this position to play with God. It is not ordinary position. Therefore the rascals, they think, "This is all myth." But it is inconceivable by them. But one comes to that state, he can play with God, he can rise on the shoulder of God and he can talk with Him like ordinary friend, ordinary child. So one has to come to that position.
Hayagriva: Hmm.
Prabhupada: The very word is this krta-punya-punjah. One who has amassed the resultant action of pious activities for many millions of births, that he can have this position.
Hayagriva: Six pages later, Alexander writes, "The community is one of cooperation. The individual is sustained by trusting God, but he wants and claims the help of God as the child his father's, and in turn God reciprocates the worship man pays Him and the confidence he reposes in Him."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Yes. He says that six pages after he says God does not reciprocate. "There is no such reciprocation from God."
Prabhupada: But here he says reciprocate.
Hayagriva: He says there's reciprocation. That's what's confusing. But he goes on further to say, "There's always the double relationship of need. If man wants God and depends upon Him, God wants man and is so far dependent."
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is dependent. There is no question about it.
Hayagriva: But how is God dependent on man?
Prabhupada: Not. God is not dependent, but...
Hayagriva: No, but that, he seemed to be saying that.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: He says, "If man wants God and depends upon Him, God wants man and is so far dependent."
Prabhupada: Yes. That, that is acceptable in this sense, that God is independent thoroughly, but sometimes He wants to become dependent. That is His pleasure. And He accepts some of His devotee so that He can depend upon. Just like mother Yasoda, that God became dependent on mother Yasoda. Unless mother Yasoda allows God to suck her breast, God will die. God is thinking like that, and He is crying. That is God's pleasure, that everyone is dependent on Him, and He is not dependent on anyone, so in order to derive this pleasure how a dependent child enjoys the care of mother, He accept to become a son of a devotee. That is not very ordinary thing to understand, but He has In the Caitanya-caritamrta it is explained...
Hayagriva: I'm not sure that Alexander understood it in that way.
Prabhupada: No. How he can understand? (laughter) He cannot. He is a talkative philosopher, that's all.
Hayagriva: He, he says, "God Himself is involved in our acts and their issues. Not only does He matter to us, but we matter to Him."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is one sense correct. Because we are fallen condition and we are sons of God, so we are suffering. God is very much compassionate; therefore He comes personally to teach us: "You rascal, why you are rotting in this material world? You surrender to Me and go back to home, back to Godhead, you will be happy." Therefore He is consulting. Otherwise why He comes from Vaikuntha? Everyone, just like a son is rotting in his own way, but the father comes: "My dear son, why you are rotting in this way? You come home. You have got state. You will live there comfortably." But he does not come. That is his misfortune.
Hayagriva: Now, Alex...
Prabhupada: God's, God's becoming concerned about a..., us is natural, because we are sons of God, but at the present moment we are disobedient; therefore you are conditioned by nature. So we are suffering, and God being the supreme father, He feels for. He is not suffering, but He feels, as a devotee feels for these conditioned soul. Because he is servant of God, he knows that God feels for these conditioned soul; they are suffering. That Krsna also gives recognition to the devotee, na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah. The devotees who are trying to preach the gospel, the instruction of Krsna, Bhagavad-gita, he is the most dear devotee to Krsna, He says, because he is acting on behalf of God to deliver these rascals, conditioned soul.
Hayagriva: He speaks of theism and pantheism. Now we might equate theism with personalism and pantheism with impersonal, the impersonal aspect.
Prabhupada: There is nothing... Impersonal means when we cannot see that the background is person. We can of course take the lesson from nature that the sunshine is impersonal but the background is sun-god. But because we are in a very lower stage of life we can simply experience the sunshine but we cannot go and talk with the sun-god. That is not possible. So similarly, the background is person and the expansion of God's energy is imperson. So because we are in the energy, we are not directly in touch with God; therefore we say that God is an imperson. We have no such capacity now, but they, if we become devotee, we can attain that position when he can talk with God in person as the gopis and the cowherds boy, mother Yasoda and other in Vrndavana inhabitants they are doing.
Hayagriva: He says, "For theism, God is an individual being distinct from the finite being which make up the world. For panth..."
Prabhupada: Hm? Finite? He is not finite.
Hayagriva: No, He is distinct, He is different. He is an individual...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Hayagriva: ...but He is different from the finite beings...
Prabhupada: So that is the Vedic injunction, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. He is also eternal, He is also living being; we are also eternal, we are also living being. But He is the chief. How He is chief? Eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. That single number eternal living being, He is maintaining all these plural number living beings. Therefore you will find either in this material world or in the spiritual world there is so much arrangement. The sky is there, the air is there, the fire is there, the water is there, the land is there. He has made, even in this conditioned state, God has given us so much things, made for our maintenance. We require water--we find; we require air, so many things, and God has given us ample opportunity. So He is maintaining. Without air we cannot breathe; without water we cannot live; without fire we cannot live. So He has given; therefore He is maintaining, He is maintainer. So one, the chief eternal living being is God, and the subordinate eternal living being are the jivas, or the conditioned soul.
Hayagriva: Well that's one hand, theism. He says, "For pantheism God is eminent in the universe of finite things, a pervading presence."
Prabhupada: Yes. Presence is just like the water has come from Him. We say the semina of God. The light is coming from God. We say the sun is the eye of God. In this way everything is related, emanation from God. So, so long we do not understand wherefrom these things are coming, it appears God is imperson. But when we understand that "Here is the source of this sky, this air, the light, the water, the land," then He is person. So impersonal feature means a subordinate feature to the person. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, maya tatam idam sarvam: "All the sky, air, fire, air, land, water, everything, that is My expansion." Maya tatam idam sarvam. Sarvam means everything. And mat-sthani sarva-bhutani: "They are staying on Me." Just like the sunshine is on the sun. As soon as sun sinks, the sun, there is no sunshine. Similarly, the sunshine appears to be very big and the sun globe appears to be small, but the whole sunshine is depending on the sun globe. Similarly, the whole exhibition of impersonal representation--earth, water, air, fire, sky, so on, they are all depending on God. There..., therefore Krsna says, maya tatam idam sarvam: "Everything that you see, that is My expansion, and everything is resting on these elements." Therefore He says, mat-sthani sarva-bhutani, naham tesu avasthitah: "But personally I am not there." And standing on this vast land or in the ocean he is in God, but personally he cannot see. Therefore Krsna says, "Personally I am not present there, although he is standing on Me." Oh, Kunti also says that, that "You are within and without, but still, the fools cannot see. Only the paramahamsas can see You." That is in Kunti's prayer you will find. (aside:) Find out this Kunti's prayer. Perfect knowledge.
Hayagriva: (to Hari-sauri:) Why don't you give the verse? Why don't you just give, give the verse, read, give the verse numbers for the typist.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: Uh... Canto One, Chapter Eight, text 18, 19 and 20. So I'll just do the English, or the overall verse?
Hayagriva: Read the English.
Hari-sauri: "Srimati Kunti said: O Krsna, I offer my obeisances unto You because You are the original personality and are unaffected by the qualities of the material world. You are existing both within and without everything, yet You are invisible to all. Being beyond the range of limited sense perception, the eternally irreproachable factor covered by the curtain of deluding energy, You are invisible to the foolish observer, exactly as an actor dressed as a player is not recognized. You Yourself descend to propagate the transcen..."
Prabhupada: That is very good example. His father is playing on the stage, and the son is seeing, and another, another friend is seeing, saying, "Do you see your father?" Then "Where is my father?" He, he, he does not recognize his father. Very good example.
Hari-sauri: Then, uh, third verse, "You Yourself descend to propagate the transcendental science of devotional service unto the hearts of the advanced transcendentalists and mental speculators, who are purified by being able to discriminate between matter and spirit."
Prabhupada: Advanced transcendentalists, they can understand. Not these speculators with limited sense perception. Finished?
Hari-sauri: Hm.
Prabhupada: The speculators have no knowledge. (laughs)
Hayagriva: Yes. He says, "It is not so much that God is in everything but rather that everything is in God."
Prabhupada: That's another foolishness.
Hayagriva: What is this position?
Prabhupada: He is inside and outside. He is within and without.
Hayagriva: Why should it be more one way than the other?
Prabhupada: Because there is nothing but God, so how he can be without God? Sarvam khalv idam brahma. Everything is God's expansion. How it can be sometimes in God and sometimes not in God? When he is not in God, that means he is maya. Now maya is also God, mama maya. So how he can be without God? That is illusion. Just like these criminal. He thinks, "I can be independent of the government." No. That is not possible. Either he will remain in jail or outside the jail, you are under the government. But he thinks that "I am free." That is foolishness. He is not free at anytime.
Hayagriva: Now he analyzes theism, which is the personal aspect, and pantheism, the impersonal aspect, and he finds both defective in themselves, and so what is his position? This is his position: "If the question is asked whether the speculative conception of God or Deity which has been advanced here as part of the empirical treatment of space.time, and has appeared to be verified by religious experience belongs to theism or pantheism, the answer must be that it is not strictly referable to either of them. Taken by itself..."
Prabhupada: That is his mistake. As you have explained that the sky is also with reference to God... The sky is explained as the heart of God, and the water is explained as the semina of God, the moon is explained as the mind of God, the sun is explained as the eyes of God, the land is explained as the foot of God. So everything is with reference to God. So for a person who understands God, there is nothing existing without God. So how God can be separate? That is the fact. So pantheism or any "ism" you take, it has reference with God. What he says?
Hayagriva: This, he goes on to say, he says it doesn't belong, strictly belong, strictly belong to theism or pantheism. "The answer must be it is not strictly referable to either taken by itself, that in different respects it belongs to both, and that if a choice must be made, it is theistic," that is personal, "for God for us is..."
Prabhupada: That, that means when you come to the personal God you see that everything is with reference to God. There is nothing independent. Idam hi visvam bhagavan ivetaro. That is explained, that this visvarupa universe is Bhagavan, but it appears that it is different from Bhagavan to the less intelligent. So then there cannot exist anything without Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but those who have no sufficient knowledge, they think that "This is separate from God and God is separate from you."
Hayagriva: He says, "God is both body and soul..."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "...and His soul is His Deity. Since God's body is the whole of space.time, God, in respect of His body, is all-inclusive, and all finites are included in Him, and in their continuous connection as pieces of space.time, and linked by spacial-temporal continuity they are fragments of God's body, though their individuality is not lost in it."
Prabhupada: This is right. This is right. This experience he has got very good work.
Hayagriva: "God is an individual being just as man or any other finite is..."
Prabhupada: And now he is coming to that.
Hayagriva: "...only that He is infinite."
Prabhupada: He is, He is person, but He is not a person like us. But sometimes, due to our poor fund of knowledge... That is explained, avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam. "These rascal, because I am here talking with Arjuna just like a human being, they are thinking that I am also a human being." No. He is infinite, Arjuna is finite. That is explained in the Fourth Chapter also, that "Arjuna, you are doubtful how I can remember that I spoke this philosophy to sun-god some millions of years ago." Naturally a finite man cannot remember how one can remember. "That is the difference between you and Me, that I know everything; you forget. So although you are living being eternal, I am also living being eternal, that is the difference between you and Me."
Hayagriva: He says, "God's body is not spaceless nor timeless, for it is space.time itself."
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything emanates from Him, so there is nothing separate from God. God includes everything. That is the conception of God. Janmady asya yatah. Everything has emanated from Him.
Hayagriva: This is the final point. He says, "Concerning the existence of the evil..."
Prabhupada: This description is very nice.
Hayagriva: The description on the...?
Prabhupada: The last description.
Hayagriva: That last description. That the living entities are fragments of God's body...
Prabhupada: Everything...
Hayagriva: ...but their individuality is not lost.
Prabhupada: Everything that you will see, they are all part and parcel of God. The other day I was saying that the wheel, the whole wheel is resting on the axle. So axle is there, the wheel is moving, so everything is part and parcel of God. Therefore the Mayavadi's philosophy that everything is one, yes, but they do not accept the variety. The wheel is one, that's all right, but still the parts, sometimes it is called spokes, sometimes it is called the rim, sometimes it is called the hub, sometimes it is rolling, sometimes it is stopped, but everything the wheel, nothing but wheel.
Hayagriva: He goes through a lot of, a lot of speculation to arrive at the final point. Concerning the existence of evil and suffering in the world, he writes, "God is not responsible for the miseries endured in working out his providence, but rather...
Prabhupada: That I have already explained. The miserable condition is created by us, and we suffer.
Hayagriva: Yes, he says, "rather, we are responsible for our acts."
Prabhupada: We suffer. Just like the silkworm, he creates a cocoon and becomes entrapped and dies. He is creating this fiber, silk fiber, and becomes entrapped. That is his creation.
Hayagriva: A co...
Prabhupada: What is called? Cocoon?
Hayagriva: Yes, a cocoon.
Prabhupada: He becomes entrapped. So similarly, mrtyu-samsara-vartmani. Aprapya mam nivartante mrtyu-samsara-vartmani. Because he is acting independently without caring for God's instruction, then he is entangled; he suffers. That is the position. God has not created this suffering; he has created his suffering.
Hayagriva: That's the end of Alexander. (end)
Philosophy Discussions MILL.HAY
John Stuart Mill
Hayagriva: This is John Stuart Mill. In his essay on nature Mill writes, "The order of nature, in so far as unmodified by man, is such as no being whose attributes are justice and benevolence would have made with the intention that his rational creatures should follow it as an example. It could only be as a designedly imperfect work which man in his limited sphere is to exercise justice and benevolence in amending." So Mill concludes...
Prabhupada: In man dealing, not with any other living beings, only man.
Hayagriva: Well man, Mill concludes that conformity to nature has no connection whatever with right and wrong, and that man must amend nature. He must not act according to nature, but must--the word he uses is "amend"...
Prabhupada: Yes, amend. Not only amend. The nature, that we discussed, almost always, the nature is animal nature. But man must be above the animal nature. That is rationality. Normally a man is called rational animal, so he should advance in rationality. Just for eating, eating is common to the man and to the animal, but man should be advanced, what kind of eating it should be. Not only natural, although natural tendency is... Just like man, some of, not all, some of them want to eat meat. So rationality is that "If I have got better foodstuff, why shall I kill that animal?" This is then rationality. But because he can eat meat, he can kill animal, he should go on killing animal, that is less intelligence. God has given so many nice foodstuff. Take for fruits, there are varieties of fruits Krsna has given to the mankind, and we can utilize milk in so many nice preparation. So the fruits are not eaten by the animals. The dogs, cats, they do not eat fruit. It is meant for human being, so similarly there must, discrimination is the better part of valor. Is that not English proverb? So man should have discrimination, and especially for eating. I think George Bernard Shaw wrote one book, You are What You are Eating.
Hayagriva: You are what you eat.
Prabhupada: Yes. So the eating, about, there must be rationality, not to be carried by the nature's way. Nature's way, a man can eat anything, and they are eating also at the same time. The other day I saw in the airplane one Marwari gentleman he was eating the intestine of the hog. What is called?
Hayagriva: The what?
Prabhupada: Intestine of the hogs.
Devotee: Hogs' intestines.
Prabhupada: What is that called?
Hayagriva: Hogs intestines?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: People eat pig's feet also, that's a...
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: A very favorite, the feet of pigs.
Devotee: Pig's trotters.
Prabhupada: Feet.
Hayagriva: Pig's feet.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: That's considered a delicacy.
Prabhupada: So this way they have developed their consciousness. So Narottama dasa Thakura said, nana yoni brahman kare kadarya bhaksana kare, this cycle of birth and death is that, that he comes to a species of life, he eats the most abominable food. So that, that is to be prohibited in human life. That is checking the natural instinct and to become rightly rational, what to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, how to defend. This is also animal propensity. Above that he should search out about the Absolute Truth, then his rationality is properly used. Otherwise he remains animal.
Hayagriva: He further writes, "The truth is that there is hardly a single point of excellence belonging to human character which is not decidedly repugnant to the untutored feelings of human nature." So he felt that virtues are not instinctive in man, virtues like courage, cleanliness, self-control, these virtues have to be cultivated. They're not...
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore in the human society there is educational system. Man has to be made a right rational animal. Although he is animal, he has to be educated in nice way. That depends on education, system of education, but in that connection studying the whole world's education system, the Vedic education is perfect. Therefore every man should be educated as they are instructed in the Vedic literature and a summary of Vedic literature is Bhagavad-gita. So every man should read it as it is without any unnecessary interpretation. That will make the man perfect educated.
Hayagriva: Mill envisions God at war with evil, and man's role is in aiding or helping God in this war. He writes, "If providence, or God, is omnipotent, providence intends whatever happens and the fact of its happening proves that providence intended it. If so, everything which a human being can do, is predestined by providence, and is a fulfillment of its designs. But if, as is the more religious theory, providence intends not all which happens, but only what is good, then indeed man has it in his power by his voluntary actions to aid the intentions of providence."
Prabhupada: Yes. Providence desires only good. The man, the living being, is in this material world on account of his imperfect will. God is very kind that even though he is willing imperfectly to enjoy this material world God is giving him a directed facilities. Just like a child wants to play in certain way, still the child is guided by some nurse, or some servant by, engaged by the parent. So our position is like that. We have come to this material world to enjoy, giving up the company of God. So God has allowed him, "All right, you enjoy and experience. When you will experience that this material enjoyment is not good, then you will again come back." So He is guiding the enjoyment of the living being, especially of the human being so that he may again come back to home, back to Godhead. And nature is the via media agent, under the instruction of God. So if he (is) too much addicted to misuse the freedom, then he is punished, and that is also according to his desire. It is not God's desire that a human being become a pig, but he develops such mentality to eat everything. So God allows him to do everything, to eat everything up to stool in the body of a pig. That is God's concession. But he wanted to eat all this nonsense abominable thing so God gives him the chance that, you take this body of a pig, you can eat up to steel, up to stool. You will not find any difficulty to eat stool. In this way, God is seated in everyone's heart, He is noting down his desires, and to fulfill his different types of desire, God is ordering material nature to give a particular body and his repetition of birth and death in different species...
Hayagriva: This is the continuation of Mill. He writes, "Limited as, on this showing, the Divine power must be, by inscrutable and insurmountable obstacles due to the existence of evil." Mill concludes that the existence of evil in the universe, or what he considers to be evil, pain and death, excludes the existence of an omnipotent God. He sees man in a position to aid the intentions of providence by surmounting his evil instincts. So God is not all-powerful, infinite in His power. If He were, there would be no evil, according to Mill.
Prabhupada: No. God, evil is created by God undoubtedly, but the, it was necessary on account of the human being as, misuse of his free will. God gives him good direction but when he is disobedient, then naturally the evil power is there to punish him. Therefore the evil is not created by God but still it is created. It is necessary. Just like the government constructs the prison house. So this prison house creation is not the government's intention. Government wants that university is sufficient, people may be educated and highly enlightened, but because some, not all, misuses the independence, little independence, he creates evil circumstances, and he is compulsorily put into the prison house. Similarly, we suffer on account of our own evil activities but God, being Supreme, He punishes us for our evil activities. For God there isn't... When we are under the protection of God, there is nothing evil, only good thing. There is no evil. So God does not create evil but man's evil activities obliges God to create an evil situation.
Hayagriva: To create what?
Prabhupada: Evil situation.
Hayagriva: The Christian, there's a Christian conception of God as being at war with Satan, and it appears also that Krsna was at war on the battlefield of Kuruksetra, and there were wars between the demigods and the demons, but in the Vedic literatures these wars do not seem to be taken as serious confrontation between God and God's enemies, but Krsna seems to fight the demons in a playful mood. This isn't the case in Christianity.
Prabhupada: Krsna, Krsna is all-powerful. So His fighting with the demons is, actually it is play. It doesn't affect His energy. Just like a small child is fighting with his strong father. So one slap by the strong father is sufficient to the small child. Similarly the fighting of the demons with God is like that. He gives some chance to play fighting but one strong slap to the demon is sufficient. So there is no question of fighting with God. He is omni-powerful, omni-competent, omni... But the demons are there disobeying. When the living being becomes too much disobedient and harassing to the obedient persons or devotees, then it is necessary that God kills them. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam. That two business is going on, to chastise severely the demons, non-devotees, and to give protection to the devotees. That is the idea of fighting with the demons and the demigods. Paritranaya sadhunam, whenever there is such fight, God takes side of the demigods.
Hayagriva: Mill pictures it more like a struggle but there's no struggle with them.
Prabhupada: Struggle, the struggle is there, because it is the... Demon means they are always against God's ruling. That is demon. And demigod means who will accept the rulings of God. That is the difference. In the sastra it is said that there are two kind of human being, one is called demigod and the other is called demon. The demigods are those who are abiding by the Lord, order of Visnu, and just the opposite number, they are called demons.
Hayagriva: But he pictures God as struggling.
Prabhupada: God has nothing to struggle. He is so powerful that He has nothing to do. That is the Vedic injunction. Na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate. The Vedic description of God is like this, He has nothing to do. That is right because just like a big man, a big leader, a king, personally he has nothing to do. He has got so many servants, secretaries, ministers, soldiers, so why he has got to do anything? So he has nothing to do. That is described in the Veda, na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate. There is nothing to do actually. Therefore we see Radha-Krsna picture, the Supreme Lord He is playing on his flute and enjoying. That is anandamayo 'bhyasat, that is Vedic description, that God is always enjoying, anandamaya. He has nothing to do. So, because na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate, he has nothing to do because, na tat ca samah abhyadikas ca drsyate, because nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him. Then how things are happening? Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. He has got multi-energies. The energies are acting and they are acting so nicely, svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca, and the, naturally it is happening, so systematic, so nice. Just like by God's order the sun has to rise early in the morning, exactly in the time. You watch your watch and you will find exactly in time there is sunrise and there is light, there is seasonal changes, everything in order. That is Godly arrangement. So He hasn't got to struggle, He hasn't got to fight but there is fight by His different agents to kill the evil element of the world.
Hayagriva: In his Utility of Religion, Mill writes about the power of authority.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: And the enormous, what he calls the enormous influence of authority on the human mind. "Authority is the evidence on which the mass of mankind believe everything which they are said to know except facts of which their own senses have taken cognizance. It is the evidence on which even the wisest receive all those truths of science or facts in history or in life of which they have not personally examined the proofs. Whatever is thus certified to them by authority, they believe with a fullness of assurance which they do not accord even to the evidence of their senses when the general opinion of mankind stands in opposition to it."
Prabhupada: Authority, that is authority. You can not defy it or you can not deny it. That is authority. We are presenting our Krsna consciousness movement on this principle, that you should carry out the orders of the authority, and Krsna or God is the Supreme authority. Whatever He is speaking, instructing to the human society, they must accept it without any wrong interpretation. That will make them happy. So those who are sane persons, they do not hesitate to accept the authority of God and they become happy simply by abiding by the orders of the authority. And those who are following exactly the instruction of the Supreme Authority, they are also authority. So that is the difference between the Supreme Lord and spiritual master. Spiritual master is servant authority, and God is the master authority. Therefore sevya bhagavan, seva bhagavan. Just like government officer, a servant authority, and the king is the master authority. So if one follows the instruction of the authority and teaches the people in general the same principles, then he becomes servant authority or the spiritual master.
Hayagriva: Concerning morality, Mill writes, "Belief then in the supernatural, great as are the services which it rendered in the early stages of human development, that is for children," because he says early religious teachings "has owed its power over mankind rather to its being early than to its being religious." That is you can train a child...
Prabhupada: Religion means to carry out the orders of God. This is the simple definition of religion.
Hayagriva: But the power over man, he says, is due to early training.
Prabhupada: Yes, that I have already said, that there are two authorities, one God the master authority and God's representative is the master author..., is the servant authority. So it is the duty of the servant authority to preach the instruction of God. That will make the human society happy, and this instruction should be taught from the very beginning of life. That is said in the Srimad-Bhagavatam by Prahlada Maharaja. Prahlada Maharaja was teaching God consciousness when he was five years old only and he was teaching amongst the class friend. The class friends wanted to play in the tiffin hour and Prahlada Maharaja asked them to sit down and to learn God consciousness. So the class friend protested, "My dear friend, why you are insisting now? We are now children, let us play." That Prahlada Maharaja protested, "No, no, you should not waste your time playing because this God consciousness should be learned from the very beginning of life." Kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan iha. From the very childhood Krsna consciousness should be learned. Why from the, so early, that durlabham manusam janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. He says that this human form of life you have got after many, many millions of births so we should not misuse this opportunity. We do not know when we shall meet next death, but if before meeting the next death we make our life perfect in Krsna consciousness that is the special boon to this human form of life. We should utilize it.
Hayagriva: He says, "Belief in the supernatural, great as though the service is which it rendered in the early stages of human development, cannot be considered to be any longer required either for enabling us to know what is right and wrong in social morality, or for supplying us with motives to do right and abstain from wrong." That is God is not actually necessary for a sense of morality and in communist countries today we see that they instill a social morality in their citizens that is devoid of any conception of God.
Prabhupada: Morality means to abide by the orders of God. That is real morality. Other things which we manufacture, that you will find different in different countries. But religion and morality both of them are the same principle because religion means to carry out the orders of God, and morality means only the, I mean the principle to fulfill the desires of God. Just like in the battle of Kuruksetra, Arjuna was considering, "Killing is immorality." But when he understood by the instruction of Krsna that this fight is necessary as it is designed by Krsna, so this is morality. Ultimately, morality means to carry out the desire of Krsna or God. He knows what is morality. This, another example can be given, that in the warfield the soldier is there and the commander is there. The commander is asking, kill the enemy, and if he considers that "Killing is bad, why shall I kill the enemy?" That is immorality. He should be immediately killed by martial law. He is disobeying the order of commander. So similarly, what you get, orders from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, if you carry it that is morality. Any other things manufactured by you, that (is) immorality.
Hayagriva: He believed that there is no intrinsic value in the belief of the immortality of the soul, because he said, "What..."
Prabhupada: That is foolishness. That is not philosophical neither rational. If he cannot understand immortality of the soul, then he keeps himself in the animal kingdom. He is not even human being, what to speak of his education and philosophy.
Hayagriva: He concludes this because he says, "Those who believe in the immortality of the soul generally quit life with fully as much, if not more reluctance, as those who have no such expectation." But we have examples, so many classic examples of Socrates quitting, meeting his death courageously, and how could this be possible if he didn't believe in the immortality of the soul or the...
Prabhupada: That I have already said, "Immortality of soul is the fact." If one does not understand this fact then he is animal. He is not in the humans category, he is animal category. He is experiencing daily how the soul is continuing even the body is being changed. In his family, he is seeing that the body of a child is changed into the body of a boy, but the father, mother know that the soul is the same. So where is the difficulty to understand the immortality of the soul? So that means it is less intelligence. Therefore, according to Vedic description, one who does not understand immortality of the soul he remains in the category of animals, sa eva go-kharah.
Hayagriva: Well he seemed to think that belief in the immortality of the soul, belief or knowledge or whatever...
Prabhupada: It is not belief. It is not the question of belief. It is the question of fact. Just like a man if he says, "I don't believe that I shall become old," then that is his ignorance or foolishness. He must become old man, or the body must become old. So if a man thinks that, when I shall become old, that is immortality of soul, that when I shall become old means when my body will become old. He will continue. It is common sense affair. It is a fact. Where is the question of belief or not belief?
Hayagriva: Well, wouldn't knowledge...
Prabhupada: This is knowledge.
Hayagriva: ...of immortality...
Prabhupada: This is perfect knowledge.
Hayagriva: Yes. Wouldn't knowledge of immortality...
Prabhupada: If somebody thinks that "In future, fifty years after, I shall become old man," this is knowledge. And if somebody thinks that "No, no, I shall never become old," that is ignorance. Although it is future--a man of knowledge knows that this will be future. So I shall continue to live in future, and I was a child in the past, and I am a middle aged man at this time, so in these three, past, present and future, I am existing. Where is the difficulty? If this simple truth one cannot understand, that what kind of human being he is? I remain in the past as child, the body is finished. Now I am a middle-aged man or young man, the body is different. And in future I shall become old man, that body will be different. So I, as a child, I, as a young man, as an old man, I am the same, all the bodies changing. This is the fact. Who can deny it? So where is the difficulty to understand it? And in the Bhagavad-gita, it is said, Krsna says to Arjuna, "Both you, Me, and all these soldiers, they existed in the past, and they are present existing, and in future they will continue to exist. This is immortality. He says when, I mean very openly, na hanyate hanyamane sarire, na jayate mriyate va kadacin. This living soul, he is never born. That body is changed, that is called birth. But the soul is immortal. So he never takes birth, he never dies. "No, I see that he has died." No, that is the annihilation of his body. Take it from me that by the annihilation of the body, the soul is not dead. This, this is authority and this is, we have to accept this authority. If you don't accept authority, if you have no reason to understand how the soul is immortal, then what we are, except like the animals? So one who does not believe or cannot understand, he is no better than animal. He has no knowledge. This is the beginning of knowledge. Then other (indistinct). First of all one must understand what he is. If he does not know what he is, he is wrongly directed. He is taking care of the body. Just like he, the cage and bird. If you simply take care of the cage without taking care of the bird, is that very good knowledge? That is foolishness.
Hayagriva: Let me uh... (break) What he is saying here that he doesn't believe that knowledge or belief in the immortality of the soul, gives one courage at death, more courage at death.
Prabhupada: No. First of all knowledge means to understand the fact. If you do not know the fact then on this wrong background all your knowledge is (indistinct). If the foundation is wrong then what is the value of such knowledge. Therefore the first knowledge is one should understand that he is not this body, he is soul.
Hayagriva: We should stop. (break) ...Mill was not only a utilitarian but a humanist, and he says, "A religion of humanity can have as excellent an effect, perhaps even to a greater extent, than a supernatural religion." The religion of humanity would cultivate unselfish feelings. That is a religion without God, religion with man at the center.
Prabhupada: So without God, how it can be religion? Religion means, I have already explained, the order of God.
Hayagriva: Finally on immortality and miracles, he says that there is no evidence for the immortality of the soul and none against it, but...
Prabhupada: How he can be convinced? There are so many evidences. That is the misfortune of the human society. A learned person like Mill, he cannot understand, what to speak of the others. This is simple truth. Any child can understand but due to misfortune they cannot understand.
Hayagriva: And finally he says, "The whole domain of the supernatural, the whole domain of the supernatural, of religion is removed from the region of belief into that of simple hope."
Prabhupada: No. It is neither hope nor belief. It is fact. To us at least, Krsna conscious people, it is fact because Krsna is coming and giving instruction to Arjuna, and that is recorded, and we are reading that. So where is it is belief or fiction or something? It is fact.
Hayagriva: He believed that if man could not, by the exercise of his own energies, improve both himself and his outward circumstances, that is if man could not improve the world to do more good for his, to do good for himself and other creatures, vastly more than God had in the first instance done, the being who called him into existence would deserve something very different from thanks at his hands. In other words that if man couldn't improve the world, then...
Prabhupada: How it can be improved? One man may be good, religious, abiding by the orders of God, and 99.9 percent, they are Godless. So how it can be improved? This material world, as it is, it can be improved only by the increase of percentage of God conscious men, otherwise there is no possibility of improvement. Every man is differently conscious. So you cannot bring them together. For example, just these modern civilized nations, they are struggling in the United Nation Organization, but they could not do for the last thirty, forty years. That is not possible. That is futile attempt. Unless people become God conscious, there is no improvement of the world.
Hayagriva: One last quote from Mill: "I will call no being good who is not what I mean when I apply that epithet," that is good, "to my fellow creatures, and if such a being can sentence me to hell for not so calling him, to hell I will go."
Prabhupada: I could not follow.
Hayagriva: Well, in other words that God must be good in the relative sense as I would say, "Oh, this is a good man." If he could not call God good in that relative sense he would not call God good.
Prabhupada: God is always good. If one does not know the goodness of God then he is imperfect. God is always good, God is always great. That is the version of all Vedic literature. If one does not know God is good, then he is imperfect in his knowledge.
Hayagriva: So that's the end of Mill.
Prabhupada: He says this man is good. What does he mean by this man is good? What is the qualification that he has become good?
Hayagriva: Mill is pretty much a, being a utilitarian, is pretty much a...
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, let us say...
Hayagriva: ...is pretty much of a materialist, and a good man would work for what he called the greatest happiness principle, that is the greatest happiness for all sentient beings on earth.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: So that would be the good man, would work toward that end.
Prabhupada: So is there any man who can do good to all others? Is there any man? Any single instance?
Hayagriva: A man is finite. How can he do good for everyone?
Prabhupada: Then why does he say this man is good? He is bad in other sense. So how he can say this man is good?
Hayagriva: Christ said that no man is good.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Hayagriva: there's only one good. That's God.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's a fact. You are thinking that this man is, so how he is good? He is limited in his power. He may think of his brother, of his nation, of his society but what does he do of other living beings? So how he can be good? A good man, speaking even a man like Gandhi, he is a good man, but when he was approached that stop cow killing, he could not do anything. Although he is advocating non-violence but he, the violence committing in the slaughterhouse, thousands and thousands of animals being killed, violence, what did he do? So how he is good man? Nobody can be good man.
Hayagriva: Only a pure devotee of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because he abides by the order of the Supreme Good, that's all. If Gandhi could not become a good man, so that as he was killed by enemy, so how the man can be good man? There is no good man, unless he is a devotee of the Supreme Lord, all good. It is physically impossible to become good man, even if he has got the desire. That is not possible. This is our mental concoction. This is good man or bad man. Anyone who is not God conscious, he is bad man, and anyone who is God conscious he is good man. This should be the question. (end)
Philosophy Discussions COMTE.HAY
Auguste Comte
Hayagriva: ...Frenchman, and he is known as a positivist. He felt that positivism reconciles the heart and the intellect. He felt that theology dealt solely with the heart or the sentiments and that philosophy dealt solely with the intellect, but that positiv..., but positivism reconciled the two. He writes, "Positivism proves more efficient than theology yet at the same time terminates the disunion which has existed so long between the intellect and the heart. It is a fundamental doctrine of positivism, a doctrine of as great political as philosophical importance, that the heart preponderates over the intellect. When it is said that the intellect should be subordinate to the heart, what is meant is that the intellect should devote itself exclusively to the problems which the heart suggests, the ultimate object being to find proper satisfaction for our various wants," meaning material wants, as well as spiritual wants.
Prabhupada: So we have got from Bhagavad-gita that the gross understanding are the senses, though the still finer understanding is the mind, and then intellect, and then the soul. The soul is the original, basic principle of activities. So it becomes grosser, grosser, grosser, and when the soul acts on the platform of senses and body, these are gross activities. So our calculation is the gross activities of the body, then the subtle activities of the mind and still more subtle activities of the intellect, and then spiritual platform. So that is also expressed in another way: pratyaksa, paroksa, aparoksa, adhoksaja, aprakrta. These are different stages of knowledge. Direct perception, pratyaksa; then receiving knowledge from others, then..., pratyaksa par..., aparoksa, still further Vedic knowledge. Then adhoksaja, beyond the experience of mind and senses. Then aprakrta, transcendental, spiritual. These are the different stages of knowledge and different stages of understanding from gross to the subtler forms of life.
Hayagriva: He says, "Even the laws of the solar system are very far from perfect. The increasing imperfection of the economy of nature becomes a powerful stimulus to all our faculties, whether moral, intellectual or practical. Here we find sufferings which can really be alleviated to a large extent by wise and well-sustained combination of efforts." Another way, in other words, man can improve on nature. "Those who look wisely into the future of society will feel that the conception of man becoming without fear or boast, the arbiter, within certain limits, of his own destiny, has in it something far more satisfying than the old belief in providence, which implied our remaining passive." So he felt that man's improvement on nature is better than a passive belief in God.
Prabhupada: So he is..., he does not believe..., there is no belief in God is there? There is no question of? No. But our point of view is different: that God is the ultimate decider of everything. That is called daiva-netrena. He may be acting through different agents, but ultimate decision is given by Him. And He is sitting in everyone's heart. He is observing the activities of the individual soul as witness, giving permission. Without God's permission, nobody can act. So He is giving intelligence also, and He is the cause of forgetting. Two things are there, remembering and forgetting. Both these things are coming from God. If He keeps him in forgetfulness, then he cannot remember, and if He gives him the power to remember, he can remember for long, long past activities. So ultimately God is the final director. That is our conception. Man cannot remain independent. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah. Everything is being done, impelled by the three material modes of nature, and the ultimate dictator is the Supersoul, or the Personality of Godhead in His localized aspect, situated everywhere in the heart of the living entity, or even within the atom He is there, and His is the supreme director.
Hayagriva: He says, "The universe is to be studied not for its own sake but for the sake of man, or rather of humanity. To study in any other spirit would not only be immoral but also highly irrational." This is the old Greek Sophist position, that man is the measure of all things.
Prabhupada: So the man should be inquisitive to understand the Absolute Truth, athato brahma-jijnasa. Human intelligence is meant for that purpose, that he should find out what is the ultimate source of everything. That is intelligence. What is the other point he said?
Hayagriva: "To study in any..., to study in any other spirit would not only be immoral but also highly irrational." To study the universe for any other sake other than the betterment of humanity.
Prabhupada: Betterment of humanity will depend on studying the cosmic nature or not? What does he say?
Hayagriva: The purpose for studying the universe is to improve nature, is to improve man's situation in nature. To improve the lot of man.
Prabhupada: How? How? So far we are concerned, that any living being is destined to a certain position of happiness and distress. By dint of his past activities he gets a particular type of body destined to suffer or enjoy. That cannot be changed. Either you call this fatalism or destiny--every man is destined--that cannot be changed. His intelligence can change only his position with reference to God. His present position is he is forgetful of God and his relationship with God. So this position, forgetfulness, can be changed, and human life is meant for that purpose. So far improvement of economic condition or other condition, that is already fixed up. One cannot change it. So that is confirmation in the Srimad-Bhagavatam: he is creating his own destiny. Just like it is said, "Man is the architect of his own fortune." Destiny cannot be changed. It is fixed up. Tasyaiva hetoh prayateta kovido. Anyone who is very expert and intelligent, he should know that destiny cannot be changed, but he can change his position with reference to his relationship with God. At the present moment he is forgetful of his relationship, but by good association, by Vedic knowledge, by training, he can change his position, and in that way he can improve his destiny also, or he can change his destiny. Karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam. A person, by engaging himself in devotional service, he can change his destiny. Otherwise destiny is very strong. It cannot be changed.
Hayagriva: He draws a distinction between atheism and positivism. He says, "Atheism, even from the intellectual point of view, is a very imperfect form of emancipation, for its tendency is to prolong the metaphysical stage indefinitely by continuing to seek for new solutions of theological problems instead of setting aside all inaccessible researches on the grounds of their utter inutility. In a word, atheism is still concerned with studying the 'why' instead of the 'how,' and positivism, true positivism, is concerned with the 'how' instead of the 'why.' " In other words, he felt that religion quo religion, religion as religion, had best be set aside because religious questions are basically childish. They can never be answered. So atheism is rejected because atheists "occupy themselves with theological problems and yet reject the only appropriate method of handling them." And for him the only appropriate method is to forget the whole thing.
Prabhupada: So how can he forget? Atheism will help anyone to improve his position? Just like death. Atheist, if he does not believe in God and God sends him death, how he can counteract it? He has no power to counteract it. We understand from Bhagavad-gita that death is God for the atheist. Atheists do not believe in God, but God comes to him as death to convince him that "Here I am." So how the atheist can avoid? How it will improve his present situation by atheistic speculation? So how the atheist can become independent? That is not possible.
Hayagriva: His philosophy is one of total materialism. He states, "A nation that has made no efforts to improve itself materially will take but little interest in mental or moral improvement."
Prabhupada: That standard of material improvement, that is not fixed up. One person in the material existence, he is satisfied in certain condition of life. Other man is not satisfied in that position; he wants a different standard of life. Then the question will be, "What is the standard of material life?" So far our Vedic civilization is concerned, this, the material necessities are there--eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. These are material necessities, so they are equally visible in animal kingdom or human kingdom--everywhere. It is simply mental improvement of standard, but the standard are different. So what will be the actual standard of materialistic way of life? That is the question.
Hayagriva: He felt that more..., even more than the vaisya, the merchant, or the ksatriya, the administrator, that the man who will usher in positivism will be the working man, or the sudra. He says, "The occupation of working men are evidently far more conducive to philosophical views than those of the middle classes, since they are not so absorbing as to prevent continuous thought even during the hours of labor." In other words, when a man is working he can think of philosophical issues because he doesn't have to use his mind, oh, like a merchant or a ksatriya.
Prabhupada: He, he, he has used this word ksatriya, brahmana...?
Hayagriva: Oh, no. I'm using this.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: He says..., he's speaking of the working man.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Hayagriva: In this he is a..., he influenced Marx considerably in his belief in the worth of the working man.
Prabhupada: But so far we have seen that even the working man requires a director. In the present Communist society there is working man and the manager class. So as soon as you have to accept a manager, then simply working man will not help us. There must be a managerial person. Otherwise, how the working man can be, I mean to say, systematically engaged in working?
Hayagriva: He believed in forming working men's clubs that would be dedicated to the philosophy of positivism. He wrote, "The real intention of the club is to form a provisional substitute for the church of old times." He's referring specifically to the Catholic Church; he's a Frenchman. "Or rather, the working man is to prepare the way for the religious building of the new form of worship, the worship of humanity."
Prabhupada: What is that humanity? The working man does not know...
Hayagriva: Humanity is all mankind.
Prabhupada: All mankind to do what?
Hayagriva: The worship of humanity, he spoke of, that the working man will usher in or introduce...
Prabhupada: These stamps are not very clear. What does it mean, "humanity"? To supply the necessities of the human being? Or what?
Hayagriva: Well, humanity for him is all..., simply every man.
Prabhupada: Every man is already there. So what does he mean by "every man," "humanity"?
Hayagriva: All mankind.
Prabhupada: That's all right, all mankind, but what is that humanity? Humanity is some activities? Or simply taking the whole human being together, that is humanity?
Hayagriva: All human beings together.
Prabhupada: Hm. So all human beings together, but each and every human being he has got some individuality. So even if you take all humanity, how the individuality will be the same? That is not possible.
Hayagriva: Well this is the, also the contention of Communism...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...that all men are basically the same in relation to the state.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are under the law of state, but his thinking, feeling, willing are not under the state. One man may be thinking just in his own way, another man is thinking in his own way. How this thinking, feeling, willing, psychologically how they can be one? As human being, his quota, he has two hands and two legs and one head. That's all right. But the working of the brain, the thinking, feeling of the mind, they are, they are different. Their every activities... I want to eat something; you want to eat something. Apan ruci khao, everyone wants to eat according to his taste. How these things can be adjusted, taking the whole human race together? That is not possible. Everyone has got his individual taste. How you can synchronize them? What is called, synchronize?
Hayagriva: To reconcile all mankind.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is not possible.
Hayagriva: No one would agree with. No one is in total agreement.
Prabhupada: That is not possible.
Hayagriva: But he felt that positivism...
Prabhupada: Positivism, that we can understand, that every man eats. So they have to eat. That is positive. Every man sleeps; he must sleep. But the thinking, feeling, willing, even in eating, sleeping also, everyone has got his own taste, own method. So how these things will be adjusted? If you force upon them that "You must eat these things," that will create dissatisfaction.
Hayagriva: You discussed this in Marx.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He felt... When Comte wrote, Communism was in its incipient state, it was just beginning to form under a philosopher called Feuerbach(?), and he felt that Communism and positivism could work hand in hand. He said, "Positivism has nothing to fear from Communism. On the contrary, it will probably be accepted by most Communists among the working classes."
Prabhupada: Working classes? Only working classes? So why there is managerial class? If they want classless, only working class, then why they require direction and dictatorship? Why these things are required?
Hayagriva: The dictatorship of the proletariat. This is the new idea.
Prabhupada: Then anywhere, anywhere, somebody is working and somebody is... Just like in our body even, the hand is working, the leg is working, but the brain is giving direction. That is natural. How the working class will work without the direction of someone, experienced person?
Hayagriva: Concerning men and women and the qualities, Comte felt that women were inferior physically, intellectually, and practically to men, but that they surpassed men in goodness and love. He writes, "In all kinds of force, whether physical, intellectual, or practical, it is certain that man surpasses women in accordance with a general law which prevails throughout the animal kingdom. If there were nothing else to do but to love, women would be supreme."
Prabhupada: Hn. So?
Hayagriva: Is that so?
Prabhupada: So that is natural distinction between man and woman, so how it can be changed? Woman is meant for certain activities and man is meant for certain activities. So how this can be changed? Artificially if you change it, it cannot be changed. Then, just like woman becomes pregnant, man does not become pregnant. How it will be changed?
Hayagriva: Well from this he concludes that woman, being dominated by love, is morally superior to man.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: And he considered woman, or all women, to be what he called "The spontaneous priestess of humanity. She personifies in the purest form the principle of love upon which the unity of our nature depends." So the woman is to act almost like the brahmanas, in being a priestess or in charge of the, of the religion of man, being that she's dominated by the heart.
Prabhupada: These are all imagination. When woman, when she is misguided, she becomes dangerous. There is no question of love. But one thing, according to Vedic conception life, that women and children are on the same level, so they should be given protection by men. In childhood the protection is from the father, in youthhood the protection is from the husband, and in old age the protection is from the grown-up sons. So they should never be given independence. They should be given protection, and their natural love for father or for husband or for children, then that propensity will grow very smoothly, and that will establish the relationship with woman and man very happy, and both of them will be able to execute their real function, spiritual life, by cooperation. The woman is known as his better half, so if she looks after the comfort of the man, a man is working and he is looking after the comfort, then both will be satisfied and their spiritual life will progress. Woman is meant for certain duties; man is meant for... Man is meant for hard working, and woman is meant for homely comfort, love. So both of them, if they are situated in their respective duties under proper training, then this combination of man and woman will help both of them to make progress in spiritual life.
Hayagriva: Comte felt that love of God has always interfered with man's love of women. He says, "Love of God is inconsistent with love for our fellow men, and it was impiety for the knight to love his lady better than his God. And thus the best feelings of man's nature were repressed by his religious faith. Women, therefore, are not really interested in perpetuating the old system of religion."
Prabhupada: Generally, women are interested in comfortable home life. That is woman's nature. They are not spiritually very much advanced or interested. But the..., if man is interested, and the woman helps the man, either as mother or wife or daughter, then both of them, if the woman remains subordinate and the man is making spiritual progress and the woman is helping the man, then both of them will make spiritual progress. Or the woman, without working for spiritual elevation, because (s)he is helping the man (s)he will share the profit, spiritual benefit.
Hayagriva: The role of woman he envisioned as that of man's companion. He says, "The first aspect, then, under which positivism considers women is simply as the companion of man, irrespective of her maternal duties," and that this friendship or companionship has as its basis sex. He says, "Conjugal union becomes a perfect ideal of friendship, yet still more beautiful than friendship, because each possesses and is possessed by the other. For perfect friendship, difference of sex is essential as excluding the possibility of rivalry." So he felt that sex, there can actually be very little friendship between men, because there's no sexual basis, that sex is the basis for the friendship between the sexes.
Prabhupada: Hmm. So woman, sex, there is sex, sexual necessity and the bodily demand. So woman not only give the sex pleasure to the man, but woman should prepare good foodstuff also for the man. The man is working very hard. When he comes home, if the wife supplies him good foodstuff and nice comfort and sex, then the home becomes very happy. That is practical experience. So after hard working, when man comes home, if he finds out good foodstuff and nicely satisfied by eating, and then the woman gives satisfaction by sex, then both of them remain fully satisfied, and then they can improve their real business, spiritual understanding, because human life is meant for making progress in spiritual understanding. Spiritual, first of all they must know that the spirit soul is the basis of material life even, and the body is built up on the soul, and within the body there is soul. This understanding is required both for the man and the woman. Although woman is less intelligent, still, by the help of the husband, he..., she can become intelligent. This we think, we see in the instruction of Kapiladeva. Kapiladeva is the son of Devahuti, and He is engaged in teaching the mother. So a woman, either as daughter, as wife or mother, remains subordinate and gets knowledge from the man, either from the father or the husband or son. Then that life is elevated. We find also in the conjugal life of Lord Siva and Parvati, in the Puranas we see always Parvati is questioning and Lord Siva is answering. In this way woman is elevated, and the comforts given by the woman, comforts of the tongue, of the belly, and the genital, in this way, cooperative life, both of them becomes advanced in spiritual life.
Hayagriva: He felt that in the beginning stages at least, of positivism, woman should take the role of God. He says, "From childhood each of us will be taught to regard their sex as the principal source of human happiness and improvement, whether in public life or in private. In a word, man will kneel to women and to women alone. The worship of women, when it has assumed a more systematic shape, will be valued for its own sake as a new instrument of happiness and moral growth. The worship of women satisfies this condition and is so far a greater efficacy than the worship of God."
Prabhupada: Worship of man, woman.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, to give protection to women. That is not actually worshiping, but maintaining her comfortably, that is the duty of the man. But to worship woman as God, that is not very good proposal. Then he will be henpecked. Worship of God is reserved for God only, not for anyone else. But the exchange, cooperation, between men and women for worshiping God, that is essential. Not that woman should be worshiped like God, or man should be worshiped like God. But the affection sometimes is stressed that you see him as God or see, see her as God. That is sentimental. But God is different either from man or from the woman. Both of them are living entities, both of them meant for worshiping God. Just like sometimes in the Vedic conception the wife is considered as dharma-patni, religious wife. Means wife helps the husband in the matter of his religious life. That is found in, still in Hindu family: the man is worshiping the Deity and the woman is helping about the paraphernalia Deity worship, helping the husband so that he can immediately come into the Deity room and begin worshiping comfortably. So woman should always be engaged to assist the man in every respect in his religious life, in his social life, in his family life. That is real benefit of conjugal life. But if the woman does not agree with the man, and the man treats the woman as his servant, that is not good. The man should give the woman all protection and the woman should give all service to the man. That is ideal life, family life, conceived in the Vedic way of life.
Hayagriva: Comte conceives the worship of woman as prepatory for the worship of mankind at large. He says, "The worship of woman begun in private and afterwards publicly celebrated is necessary in man's case to prepare him for any effectual worship of humanity," and that "Only man is the supreme being. It must not, however, be supposes that the new supreme being is like the old, merely a subjective result of our powers of abstraction. Existence in the true sense can only be predicated of humanity."
Prabhupada: What is the idea?
Hayagriva: That man is all there is.
Prabhupada: Huh? Can you explain what is the idea expressed in this sentence?
Hayagriva: He wants to do away with the Catholic religion and institute the worship of humanity, or the worship of man. He says that everything else is abstraction, is speculation, and that only man is the..., man is the only existence in the true sense. Atheism.
Prabhupada: Man is existence?
Hayagriva: Man is the only existence.
Prabhupada: Then? There is nobody else? What about the animals? Man is the only existence, and what about the animals? They are also...
Hayagriva: He doesn't seem to consider the animals.
Prabhupada: So what, what is the position of the animals? They are also living being.
Hayagriva: The animals would be subservient to man.
Prabhupada: Therefore...
Hayagriva: Man is the..., if humanity is the supreme being...
Prabhupada: We cannot understand what does he mean, "supreme being" and "humanity." The supreme being is God. The human being is also God? Or what does he mean, "humanity"? What is the clear meaning of humanity?
Hayagriva: Mankind, all mankind.
Prabhupada: All mankind? There are millions and millions of mankind. So instead of worshiping God you can worship millions of millions of men. Is it possible?
Hayagriva: He must mean mankind in a generalized sense.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but how you can serve the mankind? Suppose if I serve one man, does it..., is it worshiping the mankind? If not, then how you can worship millions of men at a time, or in your life? How it is possible?
Hayagriva: Well he felt, um, that the worship of humanity could be systematized, just like the worship of God, and he even devised a calendar devoted to the worship of famous dead men, and he felt that the churches could serve for a while as places to carry out these ceremonies. He says, "The buildings erected for the service of God may for a time suffice for the worship of humanity in the same way that Christian worship was carried on at first in pagan temples as they were gradually vacated."
Prabhupada: Yes, unless one has got full sense of God, they cannot stick to the worshiping method. And we have got practical experience in Los Angeles that we purchased that church because it was not going on at all. They made plans for Sunday school and so on, so on, but somehow or other it failed. Nobody was coming to the church. At last it was sold to us. Now this same church is there, and the same Americans are there, but at the present moment in our Radha-Krsna Temple it is always packed up. So what is the reason? The same church is there and the same men are there, but formerly nobody was coming, so that the church was sold to us. Now it is all packed up. What is the reason? The reason is that simply religious sentiment, assembly in the church, will not help us unless there is spiritual life and based on philosophy and full understanding of the goal of life. That will make religion perfect; otherwise no.
Hayagriva: Here is his conclusion and the last point. He says, "The whole effect of positive worship will be to make men free...," excuse me, "The whole effect of positive worship will be to make men feel clearly how far superior in every respect in the synthesis founded on the love of humanity to that founded on the love of God." In other words, love of mankind is superior to love of, of God, or what is known as God.
Prabhupada: The humanity, love of humanity means to raise the humanity to the real understanding of the goal of life. If the humanity or the whole human society kept into darkness as to what is the goal of life, that is not serving humanity, to keep them in darkness. But to enlighten them with knowledge, the ultimate knowledge is understanding of God and our relationship with God and activities in that relationship, that is real humanitarian work. Otherwise, if we keep the humanity in darkness, only within the jurisdiction of eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, or that is, that means to keep them in, in the animal atmosphere. But to teach the humanity about real knowledge, that he is not this body, he is soul, the soul is within the body and the nature of the soul, the necessity of the soul, the goal of soul--these things, if actually taken into hand to enlighten the humanity--that is real service to the humanity. And to keep them in darkness in the animal propensities, that is no service to the humanity.
Hayagriva: So that's the end of Comte. (end)
Philosophy Discussions MARX.HAY
Karl Marx
Hayagriva: ...and Syamasundara discussed the politics of Karl Marx with you but not the religious attitudes of Marx.
Prabhupada: He has any religious attitude?
Hayagriva: Well, he, his father was a Jew, but he became converted to Christianity.
Prabhupada: His father?
Hayagriva: His father, Marx's father. And Marx's mother, however, remained Jewish, and Marx was raised a Christian. But at the age of twenty-three, after having studied some philosophy at the university, Marx became an avowed atheist. And Hegel, it was Hegel who wrote, "Because the accidental is not God or the Absolute is," and Marx commented on this, "Obviously the reverse can also be said." That is because God is not, the accidental is.
Prabhupada: God is not?
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: What, what does...?
Hayagriva: So everything is accidental.
Prabhupada: Accidental.
Hayagriva: Hegel said, "Because the accidental is not,..." because nothing is accidental, "God exists." Marx says you can say it the other way around.
Prabhupada: How, how we, any sensible man can accept accidental?
Hayagriva: He thought that...
Prabhupada: Accidental... Just like a child takes birth, is it accidental? Beginning from the child, so it is not accidental. That there is a father-mother unity, and then, when the child is born, then how you can say accidental? Nothing is accidental.
Hayagriva: He felt that man..., it is only man who gives reality to God, or, he said, "the gods."
Prabhupada: Reality must be there. That we... Just like Mr. Marx, he certainly did not like to die, but he was forced to die. Why it takes place unless there is some superior force? We do not wish to have some accident but there is accident; so how you can check it? So in this way, the conception of God, there is always some superior, and there are many other things, common sense, we discuss daily that the, as the nature, things are going on so nicely, they are not accidentally. There are so many planets in the sky. Accidentally they are not colliding but they are remaining in their position. The sun is rising in due course of time, in the morning exactly in time. So there is nothing accidental. And because things are going on very systematically, so there must be some brain behind it, and that supreme brain is God. How you can deny it?
Hayagriva: Marx felt that true philosophy would say, "In simple truth I bear hate for any and every God is its own avowal, its own judgment against all heavenly and earthly gods who do not acknowledge human self-consciousness as the supreme divinity. There must be no other on a level with it."
Prabhupada: Human intelligence, unless he comes to the point of the Absolute Truth and the original cause of everything, then how his intellect is perfect? One must make progress. Progress means to go to the ultimate goal. If the human being does not know what is the ultimate cause, ultimate goal, then what is the value of his intelligence?
Hayagriva: Marx felt that religion is a symptom of a degraded man. He wrote, "Religion is the sigh of a distressed creature, the soul of a heartless world, as it is also the spirit of a spiritless condition. It is the opium of the people. The more a man puts into God, the less he retains in himself."
Prabhupada: But practically we see that the Communist are also equally failure, even without God. Now these Chinese and Russians, they are not in agreement. So same thing--that those who believed in God and those who did not believe in God the difference existed. And now amongst the Communist there are coming out so many section. So the difference of opinion is still there even denying God, without God. So that is not improvement. The real purpose is to understand what is really God is. That is required both by the Communist or the capitalist. Denying God and acting independently, that has not brought any peaceful condition of the human society.
Hayagriva: He felt, like Comte, that the proletariat, the worker, would eventually eliminate religion, and he wrote, "The political emancipation of the Jew, the Christian, the religious man in general is the emancipation of the state from Judaism, from Christianity, and from religion generally." So that the worker would become the savior of mankind in emancipating or freeing man from a religion that worshiped a supernatural being.
Prabhupada: So that has not actually happened. Marx is dead and gone. The Communist theory is already there, but they are not in agreement. The Russians are not in agreement with the Chinese men. Why it has happened? The God is not there; the working class is there. Then why there is dissension and disagreement?
Hayagriva: Marx felt that religion stood between man and happiness. He said, "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. The demand to abandon the illusions about their condition is the demand to give up a condition that requires illusion. Hence criticism of religion is an embryo, or a beginning of a criticism of this vale of tears whose halo is religion." So religion was like a millstone around the neck of man, and that man must free himself of this illusion.
Prabhupada: Religious system deteriorates, and without any understanding on philosophical basis. Then, if he is apt to, rejects that religion. But we understand that is fact that there is God on the top of all cosmic manifestation activities, and the law given by the supreme head of the cosmic manifestation, that is religion. And if we create our religious system on sentiments only, that will create troubles only and there will be misunderstandings. But actually it is a fact that there is some brain behind all this cosmic manifestation, and if we know what is that brain, how it is working, that is scientific understanding, and the law given by God is religion. That is our simple definition. Religion cannot be manufactured as law cannot be manufactured. So if we do not know what is God, how He is acting, what..., what are His words, how we have to follow that, that kind of religion will be failure.
Hayagriva: He felt... Marx writes, "The alien being to whom labor and the produce of labor belong, and whose service labor is done, and for whose benefit the produce of labor is provided can only be man himself." And he felt that throughout history that the working man has labored so hard for the construction of temples to God, and this should be changed, that man should work not to build temples to God but for the benefit of man.
Prabhupada: So unless one understands that abide by the orders of God is the benefit of man... If there is any, any organization... Even in communistic country there are many men working, but there is one director. In the state also there is one dictator, either Stalin or Lenin. A leader is wanted. So the supreme leader is called God. So the Communist cannot do without leader. Even Karl Marx, he is giving leadership. So, so leadership is wanted. There you cannot change. A person, a society is working under the leadership of God or Krsna, and a society is working under the leadership of Marx... What is this? Marx?
Hayagriva: Marx and Engels and Lenin, they were...
Prabhupada: And Lenin. So that leadership wanted. Now the question is who will be the leader--Krsna or Lenin? That is to be understood. Without leader, either the Communist or the theist cannot work. So, so far accepting leadership, the philosophy is one. Now the question will remain, "Whose leadership is perfect?" That is to be decided. But the Communist cannot avoid leadership.
Hayagriva: Like Comte, Marx believed that atheism was unnecessary because it was negative denial. He felt that socialism is positive assertion. He says, "Atheism no longer has any meaning, for atheism is a negation of God and postulates the existence of man through this negation. But socialism as socialism no longer stands in any need of such a mediation. It proceeds from the practically and theoretically sensuous consciousness of man and of nature the essence. Socialism is man's positive self-consciousness no longer mediated throught the annulment of religion, just as real life is man's positive reality through Communism." So that Communism really has nothing whatsoever to do with religion.
Prabhupada: No. Our point is that religion is not sentiment. Leadership has to be accepted, either by the Communist or the theist or atheist. There is leadership. So when the leadership is selected and the direction given by the leader, you can take it as some "ism." So religion is the same thing. When we accept the leadership of God and His direction, that is religion. I don't think on principle the Communist can change this idea. The same leader is Lenin or Stalin, and he is giving his direction, and people must follow it. So where is the difference of philosophy? Similarly, Krsna is there, His instruction is there, and we are following. So where is the difference in fact?
Hayagriva: In either case there is authority.
Prabhupada: Authority. So where is the difference in principle? There is no difference, but everyone will say that "I am the best leader." But who will select the best leader? What is the criterion of best leader?
Hayagriva: Well the basic difference is that Marx believes that there's nothing spiritual; everything is material. He says, "An incorporeal substance is just as much a contradiction as an incorporeal body."
Prabhupada: That is his ignorance, because this body is dead. That what is the difference between the dead body and the... The same Marx and same Lenin was lying, but because there is no spirit sould it was considered as dead. This is imperfect understanding of the man, of the body. Otherwise, I mean to say, man of sense studies there must be a spiritualism and materialism. Spiritualism..., spirit means the force behind the matter. It can be understood very easily that matter as it is, it is inactive. A machine may be very well made, but without a person, a living being, the machine is useless. So that is the difference between spirit and matter. Matter can be active only in touch with the spirit. Similarly, the body is active when there is soul within the body. This can be easily understood, unless one is very dull. Spirit cannot be denied. (break)
Hayagriva: He says, "Since only what is material is perceptible, knowable, nothing is known of the existence of God. I am sure only of my own existence." He feels that material life precedes consciousness and gives rise to consciousness. He says li...
Prabhupada: But he does not believe in spirit soul, is that not? Hayagriva: He says, "Life is not determined by consciousness but consciousness by life."
Prabhupada: So what is that life? When the life is absent why this body, the used body, is dead stone only? Has he got any understanding of that, what is that life?
Hayagriva: He felt that consciousness is basically social. He says, "Consciousness is from the very beginning a social product and remains so as long as man exists at all."
Prabhupada: Why? Why he finishes? Why does he not exist? What is his answer to this?
Hayagriva: What's that?
Prabhupada: So long man exists, but why he ceases to exist? Why he stops his existence, he becomes dead matter, his body?
Hayagriva: Marx had very little to say about death. He felt...
Prabhupada: But death is a fact.
Hayagriva: ...in the continuance...
Prabhupada: Death is a fact. He is talking so loudly, but as soon as he is dead he cannot speak any more.
Hayagriva: Well he would say...
Prabhupada: What is the difference? Why he becomes completely dumb? If somebody kicks on his face he cannot say anything.
Hayagriva: Well if life..., if consciousness is dependent on life, when life ceases, consciousness also ceases.
Prabhupada: That's all right, what is that life? Does he know anything? Without life you cannot speak. But he has not established what is that life.
Hayagriva: Marx opposed Comte's view of the worship of women, and he also opposed the worship of God in nature. He writes, "There is no question of modern sciences which alone, along with modern industry, have revolutionized the whole of nature and put an end to man's childish attitude toward nature as well as to other forms of childishness. The position as regards to the worship of female is the same as nature worship."
Prabhupada: But how the science or the scientific brain has surpassed the laws of nature? Has man stopped the nature's action--birth, death, old age, and disease? So how the scientist has conquered over nature? What is the meaning of this conquering? The nature's law is going on. Before Marx, his father died, his mother died, and he also died. So how he has conquered over the nature? The death is continuing.
Hayagriva: He felt...
Prabhupada: What is the improvement?
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: What is the improvement?
Hayagriva: He felt that there has been no improvement because religion has kept man...
Prabhupada: It has nothing to do with religion. It is the work of nature...
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: ...that the man takes birth and he dies. So what the science has revolutionized in this matter? Has the science stopped birth and death and old age and disease? Then what improvement has done? The work is going on. In spite of talking all theories by Marx or anybody, nature's law is still superseding them. So how the science and others, they have surpassed the laws of nature?
Hayagriva: Well, he felt that modern industry had made men...
Prabhupada: Industry, whatever you take, industry. Does it means when a man takes to industry he does not die? How he has conquered over the laws of nature?
Hayagriva: He couldn't say. How can he say?
Prabhupada: Yes, go on.
Hayagriva: He felt that industry or science could make man happier by emancipating man from...
Prabhupada: We don't think so because in the industry the worker are not satisfied. They are, they are observing strike. Why? If there is happiness, why there is strike?
Hayagriva: He felt... Well this... Of course Marx wrote before Communism came into actual existence as a, as a political institution, so he's simply theorizing.
Prabhupada: Still, his theory, he...
Hayagriva: He's never, he's never, he never saw Communist Russia for instance, or any Communist state. He, he felt that religion has..., was the cause of antagonism between men. He says, "The most persistent form of antagonism between the Jew and the Christian is religious antagonism." How has one solved an antagonism by...
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: ...by making it impossible?
Prabhupada: There is not the question of antagonism. If we actually know who is God and what He desires... I give always this example: if we know the government and the government laws, then there is no antagonism. The government says that "Keep to the right," so there is no question of antagonism; anyone must keep to the right. So there is no question of antagonism. But the antagonism is there when the so-called religious system does not know what is God and what is actually the desire of God. Then there cannot be any antagonism. That perfectness of understanding God and God's regulation or order is clearly described in the Bhagavad-gita. We are therefore advocating Krsna consciousness, that "Here is God and here is God's instructions." So if we deliver it, and the proposal in the Bhagavad-gita, they are all practical. Just like God says that you divide the society in four division--not only worker, but also the good brain, good administrator, and good producer of food. That is the actually the divisions of the society. So without division of the society, if you simply keep worker, who will give them instruction to work? These are all imperfect ideas. But the perfect ideas are given in the Bhagavad-gita. If we follow that, then the human society, humanity will be in perfect order. So either you call it religion or a system to..., following which one can become peaceful. Religion means, to understand God means, a system. A system is explained in the Bhagavad-gita in three principles. God says that He is the proprietor of everything, sarva-loka-mahesvaram. So we see this planet, and there is different proprietors--individual proprietor of the land or the state proprietor, the king. So there is a proprietor of this earth, either you divide it nationally or you take it wholly. So similarly there are many, many millions of others, so they are called sarva-loka. So there must be a proprietor. So if we know who is that proprietor and how He is working... That is also stated, that the supreme proprietor is the supreme friend of everyone. So if we find out the supreme proprietor, supreme friend, and if we understand the proprietor is the enjoyer of everything, that is real religion. Then peace will prevail. But if we do not know who is the proprietor, what is His function, what is our relationship with Him, that we create antagonism. Somebody will say, "My religion is better," somebody will say, "My religion is better." But we most of all first, first of all know what is religion. Religion, we say, that the order given by the supreme proprietor and to live according to, according to that order, that is religion. If you do not know what is religion, what is the use of criticizing religion or creating antagonism?
Hayagriva: Well, evidently Marx never got over the antagonism between his father and his mother--his mother who was Jewish and his father who was a Christian convert. He says, "As soon as Jew and Christian recognize their respective religions, there is nothing more than different stages of evolution of the human spirit, as different snakeskins shed by history, and recognize man as the snake who wore them. They will no longer find themselves in religious antagonism but only in a critical scientific and human relationship. Science constitutes their unity. Contradictions in science, however, are resolved by science itself." So that, in other words, science, material science, is to replace this religion, and religion is to be shed by mankind just as a snake sheds its skin. And in this way the antagonisms created between Jew and Christian or, or Hindu and Muslim are reconciled.
Prabhupada: Reconciled can be only when you actually know what is God. Simply by stamping oneself Christian, Jewish, or Hindu and Muslim, without knowing who is God and what is his desire, that will naturally create antagonism. Therefore the conclusion is, as Mr. Marx giving stress on science, so we should understand scientifically what is religion, what is God. Then this antagonism will stop.
Hayagriva: He felt that the state should eventually assume the role of Christ. He said, "As Christ is the mediator on whom man unburdens all his own divinity and his whole religious burden, so also the state is the mediator on which man places all his unholiness and his whole human burden." So, in other words, that Christ, of course, relieves man of all his burdens and his sins through his message of salvation, and instead of Christ it would be the state that would assume this role.
Prabhupada: So Christ gives the knowledge how one can be relieved of the material burden. That is the business of all religious preacher. The religious preacher should give information to the people in general the exact position of God or idea of God, and when people will learn scientifically about God's existence and his relationship with God, then everything will be adjusted. That is wanted. Our Krsna consciousness movement is trying to give people exact idea of God, exact definition of God, and exact instruction of God. If we take that, take to that, then our religious life will be perfect.
Hayagriva: The last point is... And this is a point that most Marxists tend to ignore because Communism, when Communism comes to power, they, oh, like in Tibet, I believe when the Communists came in they abolished...
Prabhupada: All religious system.
Hayagriva: The Dalai Lama had to flee to India, I believe, and the Tibetan Buddhists had to...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: They had a temple in Delhi.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Well, he says, Marx says, "The incompatibility with religion with the rights of man is so little implied in the concept of the rights of man that the right to be religious according to one's liking and to practice one's own particular religion is explicitly included among the rights of man. The privilege of religion is a universal human right."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: So he felt that man should at least be allowed to practice his religion, although he felt that the state should encourage the abolition of religion. That it is an inherent human right for man to be able to practice religion...
Prabhupada: That, that I explain always, that state duty is the freedom of religion, but the state must see that a person advocating particular type of religion, whether he is acting according to that religion...
Hayagriva: But he felt that if this religion should be allowed, it should be individual and not communal. He says, "Liberty as a right of man is not based on the association of man with man but rather on a separation of man from man. It is the right of separation..."
Prabhupada: No, there is no question of separation, that if we accept God as the supreme father. Now the Christian religion believes God as the supreme father. So if the supreme father is there, and if we become obedient to the supreme father, then why, where is the difference of opinion? But we do not know the supreme father and we do not obey the supreme father. That is the cause of dissension. The son's duty is to become obedient to the father and enjoy father's property. So if we know the supreme father, and if we live according to the father's order, so there is question of antagonism, dissension. It is all our own, father being the center. That, the difficulty is that we call supreme father but we do not accept the father's order or what is the order of the supreme father. That is the defect.
Hayagriva: Well he felt that if man, if man is going to worship God, if man must worship God, he should do so privately, individually, and not communally.
Prabhupada: No, if God is a fact, and man must worship God, then why not communally? That he, he is pleading that every individual man shall manufacture his own God and worship.
Hayagriva: Well he would rather do..., do away with the whole thing.
Prabhupada: No, that is impossible. God means, as I have explained, the supreme father. He is the father of every man or every living entity. So how the father can be different? If man manufactures a different... There are ten sons in the family; the father is one. It is not that one son say, "No, I shall select my own father." So what kind of father he is? So that is imperfectness of understanding the father. Nobody can say that "I can select my own father." How it is possible? Father is one. Similarly God is one, and if one is actually religious and obeying the same one father's order, then where is dissension? That the difficulty is nobody knows who is that supreme father, neither they are prepared to obey the orders of the father. That is the difficulty. In one family there cannot be two father. The one father. Similarly, when you speak of the supreme father, "O father, give us our daily bread," He is father of everyone. So why one should select one father, another man will select another father? That means he does not know who is father. That is the defect.
Hayagriva: Well he was hoping that this process would eventually lead to the total dissolution of religion.
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: That if everyone worships..., well not everybody, but if you must worship God, worship Him in your own way, in your own home.
Prabhupada: So dissolution of religion means animalism. That has happened actually, because one does not know what is God, soon there is misunderstanding of religion. Therefore if he, actually anyone is serious about religion, then they should sit down together, that "We call God as supreme father, then why should we fight ourselves? Let us obey the order of the supreme father." Then there is no dissension. But they do not do that, neither they know who is the supreme father. That is the defect.
Hayagriva: You have been to Communist Russia, and was there any church worship? The Eastern Orthodox church used to be the standard Russian religion. Is there any church worship in Russia today?
Prabhupada: I, I, I did not see, but I saw some mosquelike building in the, what is called, Red Square. I saw that building, but that is vacant. They are worshiping Stalin, no, Lenin. Yes. They are worshiping Lenin's tomb. That I have seen in the Red Square. And there was a church or mosque, I do not know. The building is, can be called a church or mosque...
Hayagriva: Church.
Prabhupada: That was vacant.
Hayagriva: It's more like a museum.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: They keep it as a museum.
Prabhupada: Yes, that I have seen. I don't think there is any worship of church.
Hayagriva: But there must be some... There must be some people in Russia, since God is...
Prabhupada: They may be doing private, privately. Or I did not see.
Hayagriva: Well at least now some people are interested in purchasing your books in Russia.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is...
Hayagriva: What does this mean?
Prabhupada: It may be because it is Indian culture, and we have quoted from Vedic literature, the original Sanskrit. So they are little after the Indian culture, so when they find that here is the original version in original letters, they may be interested in that.
Hari-sauri: But actually it's a fect that in Russia there aren't many people who still believe in God.
Prabhupada: No, no. Believe in God, why? Eighty percent, ninety percent, they believe in God. That cannot be avoided.
Hayagriva: But don't the... The young people are Communists, are very enthusiastic about Communism, but as a person grows older and sees death as inevitable, don't the, don't the older people worship...?
Prabhupada: No, even the young men, in Russia I have seen, they are after also God. They are unhappy because they are not allowed to go out of Russia. They want to see the world, but they are not allowed. Their independence is suppressed. So they are not happy.
Hayagriva: That's the end of...
Prabhupada: Hm. (end)
Philosophy Discussions JAMES.HAY
William James
Hayagriva: This is William James. All of these quotations are taken from his most famous book, which was entitled The Varieties of Religious Experience. He's an American philosopher. He defines religion in this way: "Were we to limit our view to it, we should have to define religion as an external art, the art of winning the favor of God. The relation goes direct from heart to heart, from soul to soul, between man and his maker."
Prabhupada: The man or not man, there are living beings, varieties; we simply do not see the man as a living being. We see there are varieties of living beings, beginning from water up to the higher planetary system. There are different forms of living being, we have several times repeated. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati, like that, nine millions, ah, nine hundred thousands forms of body within the water; then plants, trees, creepers, insects. So all of them are living beings. God is concerned with all of them. Why man is created? Every one of us in different form we are created. Or exactly not created; we are part and parcel of God. In one word God is the father of all living entities. So the simple relationship is that God is maintainer, we are maintained. This is our relationship. In the material world, as a man may have more than one wife, so similarly God has two prakrtis, or subordinate energies--material and spiritual. So in the material world the material nature is the mother, God is the father, and varieties of living entities, they are all maintained by the father, supreme father. This is the conception of universal brotherhood. And if we understand our relationship with God as father and son... There are so many sons. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, sarva-yonisu. All different forms of life, the mother is material nature, and God says, aham bija-pradah pita: "And I am the seed-giving father." So that relationship should be known, and if we act according to that relationship, there will be actual peace and prosperity and advancement of all knowledge. That is wanted.
Hayagriva: Concerning the founding of religions, James writes, "The founders of every church owe their power originally to the fact of their direct personal communion with the Divine. Not only the superhuman founders--the Christ, the Buddha, Muhammad--but all the originators of Christian sects have been in this case. So personal religion should still seem the primordial thing even for those who continue to esteem it incomplete."
Prabhupada: Yes. God is person. If He is the supreme father, the father is a person. We have got no experience of father being imperson. My father is person, his father is person, his father is person. In this way go on, father's father's..., searching. So the ultimate father is also person. There is no doubt about it. Either human father or animal father, every living being is a person. Therefore the right conclusion is God the father of all living being is person. Personal conception of God is there in every religion--Christian religion, Muhammadan religion, or Vedic religion. In the Vedic religion, om tad visnoh paramam padam sada pasyanti surayoh. Those who are sura, means advanced in spiritual knowledge, or the brahmanas, one who knows the Supreme, they find the supreme father is Lord Visnu. Lord Visnu and Krsna is the same category, or same substance. So God is person and the ultimate end. The impersonal realization is imperfect realization of God. The Supersoul realization is still advancement, but the final advancement is Bhagavan, or person God. So we must know our relationship with, and first of all our first business is to know God and our relationship with Him, then act accordingly. Then our life becomes perfect. This is the process of God realization.
Hayagriva: James saw religion as the source of philosophy. He writes, "Since the relation of man to God may be either moral, physical or ritual, it is evident that out of religion in the sense in which we take it, theologies, philosophies, and ecclesiastical organizations may secondarily grow."
Prabhupada: So philosophy means advancement of knowledge. So we are making progress in knowledge when our knowledge is actually come to the point of perfection of knowledge, that is understanding of God. God is there, but on account of our foolishness, sometimes we deny the existence of God. That is the most foolish platform of living condition. But sometimes we have vague idea, some imagination, and sometimes impersonal, sometimes pantheistic. In this way different philosophies means they are searching after God, but on account of not being perfect, there are differences of opinion or different conception of God. But actually God is person, and when one comes to that platform--to know God, to talk with Him, to see Him, to feel His presence, even to play with Him--that is the highest platform of God realization. And the relationship is God is the great and we are small. So our position is always subordinate. (break)
Hayagriva: This is the continuation of William James.
Prabhupada: So to carry the orders of God is religion. So the more this fact is realized, that is perfection of religion, and dharma, religion, is perfect when he understands who is God and how to learn to love Him.
sa vai pumsam paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhoksaje
ahaituky apratihata
yenatma samprasidati
When we actually understand God and try to please Him, serve Him, that is really religious life and perfection of life.
Hayagriva: James gave the following estimation of impersonalism and Buddhism. He wrote, "There are systems of thought which the world usually calls religious and yet which do not positively assume a God. Buddhism is in this case. Popularly, of course, the Buddha himself stands in place of a God, but in strictness, the Buddhistic system is atheistic."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, sammohaya sura-dvisam. Lord Buddha appeared at a time when people became atheistic, and especially they began to kill animals in the sacrifice in large quantity. So God, Lord Buddha, appeared, being sympathetic to the poor animals. Sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam. He was very, very much aggrieved to see the poor animals are being killed unnecessarily. So he preached the religion of nonviolence, and because the people became atheist, so Lord Buddha, just to take them under his control, he also collaborated and said, "Yes, there is no God, but you hear me." But he is incarnation of God, so it is a kind of transcendental cheating that in the beginning he said there is no God, but he is God himself, and people accepted his words or instruction. That is Buddhism. So this very word is used, sammohaya sura-dvisam. Sura-dvisam, atheist class of men, are always against theist class of men. Therefore their name is that atheist means who are envious of devotees. So in order to cheat these persons who are envious of God or devotee, Lord Buddha appeared and established a system of religion on the platform of nonviolence--no more animal killing. Because those who are animal killers, they cannot understand God (indistinct). That is not possible. They may have some vague idea. So Lord Buddha wanted to stop these sinful activities, and he established the system of nonviolence.
Hayagriva: James writes about religion and total surrender and involvement. He says, "In the religious life surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused. Even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our life can so successfully fulfill."
Prabhupada: Yes. Without religion the human society is animal society. So religion must be there, and religion means to understand God, to learn how to love God, how to obey His orders, and actually real religion means to accept the order of the Supreme Lord, God. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita this fact is taught. God is personally teaching that "You become My devotee, always think of Me," man-mana bhava mad-bhakto, "worship Me," mad-yaji, "and if you cannot do anything more, you simply offer your obeisances unto Me." Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru. Without any big, I mean to say, attempt for religious system, if one has got the idea that there is God, and even without seeing Him if he follows His instruction, always think of Him... Either you think of Him as personal God or as localized or all-pervading, but God has got form. One has to think of the form of the God. That is easier. And if God is accepted as impersonal, that is very troublesome. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, klesah adhikataras tesam avyakta asakta cetasam. Those who are impersonalist, for them to think of God becomes very difficult job. Who is God and what to think of, so the so-called meditation is very difficult. But if you have got really conception of a God, just like we have got Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead... Although He has got different incarnations, forms, He is the Supreme, so we think of Him. That is our Krsna consciousness movement. We can think, because we have got the form, we have got the Deity in the temple, we have got the picture in our room, and so we have got definite conception of God and definite instruction of God. So this system, following the Bhagavad-gita, is definitive understanding of God, so people may take this system, and by practical example they can see how those who are Krsna conscious, how they are advancing in the religious system, in every system, because God has instructed everything--religious, political, social, cultural, philosophical, science, physics--everything perfectly. God, God means He gives perfect instruction. So this perfect instruction in the Bhagavad-gita, we, we have accepted. Not accepted; we have known. God is there; you accept or not accept, it doesn't matter. So those who are fortunate, they will see the actual form of God, follow His instruction, and be perfect in the life. That is wanted.
Hayagriva: James sees happiness as an integral part of religion.
Prabhupada: Yes. Happiness is this. When you know God, follow God, you become happy. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati. As soon as is one actually God-realized person, he is immediately happy, prasannatma. Prasannatma means happy. There is no more duality, that distress, like that. He is perfectly happy, prasannatma. Prasannatma is described as na socati na kanksati: there is no more hankering, no more lamentation. Everything is perfect condition. Samah sarvesu: there is no distinction between man to man, nation to nation, animal to man, because in perfect state, the one who is actually religious, he is no longer interested only in the human society, but he knows that everyone within this material world, either man or animal or trees, they are all living entities, part and parcel of God. They are different forms only. In this way he has got clear understanding, clear dealing and clear life, clear advancement, and clear success. That is perfection of life.
Hayagriva: He says that the natural existence often proves itself to be basically unhappy. "With such relations between religion and happiness, it is perhaps not surprising that men come to regard the happiness which a religious belief affords as a proof of its truth. If a creed makes a man feel happy he almost inevitably adopts it. Such a belief ought to be true; therefore it is true. Such, rightly or wrongly, is one of the immediate inferences of the religious logic used by ordinary men."
Prabhupada: Yes. If you are actually in clear conception of God, and if you have decided to obey God and love Him, that is happiness. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje, ahaituky apratihata. This process of acting in obedience to the order of God, as we are doing in Krsna consciousness movement... We have no other business than to obey the orders of God. God says that you preach this confidential philosophy of Krsna consciousness everywhere. So because we are trying to love God, we have got some affection and love for God; therefore we are so much eager to spread Krsna consciousness. Otherwise, "It is Krsna's business. Why should we bother about Him?" No. Because we love Krsna, and He is happy that His message is being spread, that is our happiness also, that we are trying to serve God, tacitly, without any doubt. So we also feel happy, and God says that He will be very happy if you do this. So this is reciprocation. This is religion. Religion is no sentiment. Actual realization of God, actual carrying out or executing the orders of God, then God is happy, we are happy, and our progress of life is secure.
Hayagriva: He sees the lover of God as being a morally free person. He writes, "As St. Augustine's maxim, 'If you but love God you may do as you incline,' is morally one of the profoundest of observations, yet it is pregnant for such persons with passports beyond the bounds of conventional morality."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is very nice. Morality means to execute the orders of God. If God is satisfied then it is moral. Otherwise our so-called convention in this material conception of life, "This is good," "This is bad," they are described as mental concoction. We must have clear orders from God, and if we execute it for the satisfaction of God, this means, in other words, morality means the action which satisfies God, the Supreme Lord. That is morality. And if he does not satisfy the Lord, then it is not morality; it is immorality. We therefore sing every day yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado, and the orders of God is carried through the representative of God, spiritual master, because directly we have no connection with God. The spiritual master is the transparent via media between God and ourself. In our perfect stage, of course, we can talk with God, but in the beginning, neophyte state, there is no such chance; therefore we have to take instruction from the spiritual master who has got direct connection with God. And if we satisfy the spiritual master, this means we have satisfied God. That is happiness.
Hayagriva: Concerning evil, James writes, "Evil is a disease, and worry over disease is itself an additional form of disease which only adds to the original complaint. Even repentance and remorse, affections which come in the character of ministers of good, may be but sickly and relaxing impulses. The best repentance is to up and act for righteousness and forget that you ever had relations with sin."
Prabhupada: Yes. The final morality is... What in this portion?
Hayagriva: He feels that evil is a disease first...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...but worry about evil is just an orig...
Prabhupada: Another.
Hayagriva: ...just another disease.
Prabhupada: So disease, when you are in diseased condition, it means increasing suffering. Disease increases. Without treatment disease increases, as fire, without being extinguished, without attempt of extinguishing the fire, it increases. Debt, compound interest, increases. So therefore the instruction is that disease, fire, and debt should not be kept as it is without any attention. The attention must be there to see that it is not increasing, it is being completely extinguished. That is intelligence. So therefore we must know our suffering is on account of disobedience to the orders of God, or on account of becoming irreligious. So we must find out the real system of religion, and we, there is already, but on account of our ignorance it is now covered by material contamination. Otherwise our relationship with God is a fact. We are thinking independently. That is foolishness. The demons, or the atheist class, they falsely think independent of the orders of God; therefore they are forced to accept which they do not want. Ultimately they are forced to accept the punishment--birth, death, old age, and disease--but still, atheist class, they deny existence of God. That is their foolishness. Actually God is there, His order is there, and if we are deficient in carrying out the order, we should take the instruction of bona fide spiritual master, the representative of God, and we should execute it, and then we become happy.
Hayagriva: He sees two basic types of religions. One he calls sort of a naive optimism that says "Hurrah for the universe. God's in His heaven, all is right with the world." He calls this "the sky-blue optimistic gospel." And another type of religion, which he calls pessimistic in the sense that these religions recognize the inevitable futility of materialistic life, and they offer deliverance, or mukti, from the fourfold miseries of material existence. He says, "Man must die to an unreal life before he can be born into the real life." So he felt that the completest religions take a pessimistic view of life on this..., life in this world, materialistic life.
Prabhupada: Yes, unless one is pessimistic of this material world, he is animal. A man knows what are the sufferings of this material world: adhyatmic, adhibautic, adhidaivic. There are so many suffering pertaining to the mind, to the mind, sufferings offered by other living beings, and sufferings imposed forcibly by the laws of nature. So the world is full of suffering, but under the spell of maya, illusion, we accept this suffering condition as progress. But ultimately whatever we do, the death is there. All the resultant action of our activities, they are taken away and we are put to death. So under these circumstances there is no happiness within this material world. I have fully arranged for my happiness, and any moment, just after arrangement, we are kicked out; we have to accept death. So where is happiness here? The intelligent man is always pessimistic, that "First of all let us become secure," that we are trying to adjust this material position to become happy. But who is going to allow us to become happy here? This is pessimistic view. And then further advancement of knowledge is there, and when he understands the orders the orders of Krsna, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, to surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and after surrendering and understanding Him fully, then we go to the world which is full of bliss, knowledge and eternal life, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya. That is perfection of life. So unless we take a pessimistic view of this material world, we shall remain attached to it, and there will be repetition of birth and death--sometimes high-grade life, sometimes low-grade life, but this business is very, very disturbing. We make some arrangement to live here permanently, but nature will not allow us. Duhkhalayam asasvatam. We work very hard; there is unhappiness. And sometimes we may get good results, sometimes bad results, sometimes frustration, so where is happiness? Happiness is only to understand God and act according to His advice, and then go back to home, back to Godhead. That is happiness.
Hayagriva: James writes of the characteristics of a sadhu in this way. He says, "There is a certain composite photograph of universal saintliness, the same in all religions, of which the features can easily be traced. They are these." And he numbers, "Number one: a feeling of being in a wider life than that of this world's selfish little interests; in a conviction not memerly intellectual, but as it were sensible of the existence of an ideal power. In Christian, saintliness this power is always personified as God." So that's the one characteristic of a sadhu.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: A feeling of being in a wider life than that of this world's selfish little interest.
Prabhupada: Yes. God, the definition of God is there in the Vedic literature, that God is the great. The Christian idea is also that. That greatness, that if we soberly think what is the greatness, the greatness in six opulences, that God is the richest, God is the strongest, and God is the famous, and God is the wisest, and God is the most beautiful, and God is the perfect renounced. He has got so many states, sarva-loka-mahesvaram, but still He is not very much interested within this material world. He is in spiritual world along with associates. Therefore our proposition is, let us go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our Krsna consciousness movement. That is perfection of life.
Hayagriva: His second characteristic of a sadhu is thus: "He has a sense of the friendly continuity of the ideal power with our own life in a willing self-surrender to its control."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the ideal. Krsnera samsara kara chadi' anacara. We are member of the same family. God is the supreme father. That is ideal society. What does he say further?
Hayagriva: The uh... What?
Prabhupada: Second point.
Hayagriva: Oh, the second point again? "A sense of the friendly continuity."
Prabhupada: Yes. Friendly continuity means the, there are so many relationship, five relationship. First relationship is the master and the servant, and then friend to friend, then son and father, and then beloved and the lover. So these are all friendly relationship. We can, when we are actually in God relationship, we have got natural instinct to accept any one of them. So our friendly relationship with God can be chosen. Somebody likes sometime as friend to friend, father and son, or beloved and the lover, master and the servant, and the Supreme and the subordinate. They are five relationship. Any one of them, when we are actually liberated, free from material contamination, we being eternal part and parcel of God, the particular relationship is revived. That is called svarupa-siddhi, revival of our original relationship with God.
Hayagriva: Three, he speaks of, "An immense elation, or happiness, and freedom as the outlines of the confining selfhood melt down."
Prabhupada: Yes. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam. This material selfishness is maya. Actually that is not selfishness. Real selfishness is to know the relationship with God. But persons who are engrossed with the spell of maya, illusory energy, they do not know that. Mostly, 99.9%, they have vague idea of God, and how they will know the relationship? So, so that our actual business, first business is to have complete idea, complete sense of God and our relationship. That is the business of human life. Therefore in the Vedic process, the real business is realize God. Either you take yoga system or jnana system, and bhakti is cent percent simply realization of God. That is the business of human life. He hasn't got to do any other thing. That is practical understanding of God. A perfect human being knows that "My necessities of life is supplied by God, so I have no business to improve the economic condition." That cannot be done also. Nobody is going to be very rich, all of them. According to the destiny he gets his position. So one who is self-realized, he does not want to improve the material condition of life, but he wants to improve the spiritual conception of life. That is human life.
Hayagriva: Four, he sees, "a shifting of the emotional center toward loving and harmonious affection, toward yes and away from no, where the clangs of the non-ego are concerned." That is to say, agreeing with God.
Prabhupada: Yes. God is asking always that "You agree to obey My orders," and as soon as we accept this principle, we immediately becomes liberated: "Yes, from this point I shall now fully agree to the the orders of Krsna, or God." That is liberation. The liberation is explained in the Bhagavad-gita: to give up a mode of life other than devotional life. Muktih hitva anyatha rupam. Our life is meant for rendering devotional service to the Lord. As soon as we give up this principle of life, devotional service to the Lord, that is our anyatha rupam, means our living condition otherwise, except devotional service. That living condition otherwise than the devotional service is called conditioned life. And as soon as we come to this platform of devotional service, that is mukti, liberated life. Muktih hitva anyatha rupam sva-rupena vyavasthitih. To remain in one's own constitutional position is called mukti, or liberation. (break)
Hayagriva: James believes that the existence of many religions in the world is not regrettable but is necessary to the existence of different types of men. He says, "All men have, should have... Should all men have the same religion? Ought they to approve the same fruits and follow the same leadings? Are they so like in their inner needs that exactly the same religious incentives are required? Or are different functions allotted to different types of men, so that some may really be the better for a religion of consolation and reassurance whilst others are better for one of terror and reproof?" And he goes on to conclude that he thinks that difference...
Prabhupada: This is religion. Therefore I was talking in this morning that accept God as the supreme father and the material nature is the mother and we living entities, in 8,400,000 forms, we are all sons of God. So everyone has got the right to live at the cost of the father. The father is the maintainer--that is natural--and we are maintained. So every living being should be satisfied in the condition given by God. Man should live in his own condition, the animal also should live in his own condition. Why the man should encroach upon the rights, living right of other living entities like the animals? No. Nobody should encroach upon other's right. Everyone is son of God. Let him be maintained by the orders of God. That is ideal life, family life. All living entities are the members of the same family. Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that krsnera samsara kara chadi' anacara: just live in the family of Krsna without violating the rules and regulation. Then it is family life. Or without violating the orders of God. Just like in the family the father is the chief man, and the sons can live very happily by being obedient to the father. There is no trouble; father will give all supplies and necessities if we remain obedient to the father, and all the brothers can live peacefully. A very common example. But they will not do that. They will encroach upon others' jurisdiction. That is the cause of disturbance: obeying..., disobeying the orders of God.
Hayagriva: Typical of the latter part of the nineteenth century, James' only acquaintance with Hinduism was through the impersonalists, and he spoke of samadhi and the mystical experience in this way. He says, "The Vedantists say that one may stumble into superconsciousness sporadically without the previous discipline, but it is then impure. The test of its purity, like our test of religious value, is empirical. Its fruits must be good for life. When a man comes out of samadhi they assure us that he remains enlightened--a sage, a prophet, a saint, his whole character changed, his life changed, illumined." What is this samadhi or...
Prabhupada: Samadhi means ecstasy, always in God consciousness. That is samadhi. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, yoginam api sarvesam mad-gata antaratmana. The yogis means they are always remaining in meditation of the Supreme Lord. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa. Mind is always absorbed in God. That is samadhi. He has no other thought than God. So if we can continue in Krsna consciousness, that is samadhi.
Hayagriva: Now James equates this mystical union, or samadhi, to be a union in which the individual has lost contact with the external world.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: And he therefore concludes that mystical states cannot be sustained for long, except in rare instances. Half an hour or at most an hour or two seems to be the limit beyond which they fade into the light of common day. "Often, when faded, their quality can be but imperfectly reproduced in memory, but when they recur it is recognized, and from one recurrence to another it is susceptible of continuous development in what is felt as inner richness and importance."
Prabhupada: Yes. That richness comes to perfection when one thinks of Krsna constantly, without any cessation. That is recommended in the yogic chapter of the Bhagavad-gita:
yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gata antaratmana
sraddhavan bhajate
yo mam sa me bhak...
Uh...
Hari-sauri: Yuktatamo matah.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hari-sauri: Sa me yuktatamo matah?
Prabhupada: Hm, yes. You can find out that verse.
yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gata antaratmana
sraddhavan bhajate (yo mam)
sa me yuktatama...
He is first-class yogi who does not cease to think of Krsna, or God. So our Krsna consciousness movement is that we keep always in the thought of Krsna, twenty-four hours. Then we do not fall down from the yogic principle. That is our...
Hayagriva: Such mystical states, as James points out, have been also experienced momentarily and artificially through drugs such as ether. William James himself took ether...
Prabhupada: These are all artificial thing. This is not sustained.
Hayagriva: LSD and these...
Prabhupada: Another artificial names. Artificial things cannot sustain, but if you engage yourself in the devotional process, sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-seva, always hearing a about Krsna, always talking about Krsna, always remembering about Krsna, always engage in some service in the temple--there are so many services--or distributing literature about Krsna, in this way, if you keep always engaged in Krsna's business, that is perfection of life.
Hayagriva: James, after analyzing all of these religions, different religious experiences, he gives his own conclusions, and he concludes his book in this way. He gives five basic conclusions. The first--one--"That the visible world is part of a more spiritual universe from which it draws its chief significance." (break)
Prabhupada: Yes. Material world means it is existing in the spiritual effulgence of the Lord. Just like all the planets they are resting, living within the sunshine, but by geographical position, when it is back side, the sun is not in the front but in the back, then it becomes dark. Similarly, everything is existing in the spiritual effulgence, rays of the Lord, and when you forget, this is called material world. So the material world is in that piece of spiritual world, but forgetfulness of God is material. So when we..., our revival of consciousness, God consciousness, then there is no more material world. For such person who is advanced in spiritual consciousness or God consciousness, there is nothing material; everything is spiritual.
Hayagriva: Well that's his second conclusion. His second is that "Union or harmonious relation with that higher universe is our true end."
Prabhupada: Yes. Spiritual realization.
Hayagriva: Three...
Prabhupada: There is no material realization. No more material realization means no more forgetfulness of our eternal relationship with God. Then it is spiritual.
Hayagriva: Three: "That prayer or a communion with the spirit thereof, be that spirit God or law, is a process wherein work is really done and spiritual energy flows in and produces effects, psychological or material, within the phenomenal world, for religion produces a new zest which adds itself like a gift to life and takes the form either of lyrical enchantment or of appeal to earnestness and heroism." In other words, our relation with God in the world gives...
Prabhupada: That we have al...
Hayagriva: ...it's like a gift to life.
Prabhupada: ...already explained. We have got five relationships. To realize the creation of God with awe and veneration, appreciation, that is one relationship. This is called santa rasa. Then further progress is that to offer himself to serve God. That is called dasya rasa. And further advancement, to treat God as friend, that is sakhya rasa. Then accept God as son, that is vatsalya rasa. And accept God as the most beloved, that is madhurya rasa. So in this madhurya rasa, to accept God as the most beloved includes other relationships; therefore here is the highest perfection of relationship. Although all other relationships they are as good, but it depends on the devotee's choice whichever relationship we like. The result is the same, but by comparative study it has been decided by the saintly persons that our relationship with God as the lover and beloved, that is the highest position.
Hayagriva: The fifth is an assurance of safety and temper of peace and, in relation to others, a preponderance of loving affections.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's nice. When you actually come in contact with God, these senses prevail. What is that? The last point?
Hayagriva: An assurance of safety and a temper of peace.
Prabhupada: Yes. A devotee is always confident that "I am sincerely serving Krsna, so in case of danger Krsna will save me." The, just like Prahlada Maharaja life we see. He was helpless child, and his father, great demon, always chastising him, but he was confident that Krsna would save him. So when the things became too much intolerable, so Lord appeared as Nrsimhadeva and killed Hiranyakasipu. So therefore a devotee's protection by God is always guaranteed, and one who is pure devotee, he is not disturbed by any material condition. He keeps his firm faith in God. That is called surrender. It is called avasya raksibe krsna visvasa palanam, to continue the faith that "Krsna will give me protection." This full suvrender means to accept things which is favorable to God consciousness, to reject things which is unfavorable to God consciousness, to have firm faith of security under the protection of God, to enter into the family of God. These are the different processes of surrender.
Hayagriva: He concludes, "In opening ourselves to God's influence, our deepest destiny is fulfilled. The universe takes a turn generally for the worse or for the better in proportion as each one of us fulfills or evades God's demands."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is concept. God demands that "You fully surrender unto Me." So when one fully surrenders unto God, that is perfection of life.
Hayagriva: So that's the conclusion of James. (end)
Philosophy Discussions DEWEY.HAY
John Dewey
Hayagriva: This is John Dewey, who believed that religions were basically myths and that experience is of the utmost necessity. He felt that philosophy was superior to religion. He writes, "The form ceases to be that of the story told in imaginative and emotional style and becomes that of rational discourse, observing the canons of logic." So it's apparent that Dewey considers religion simply to be a story told in imaginative and emotional style, and for him philosophy observes the canons of logic. So for him the Vedic accounts of Krsna's pastimes would be imaginative and emotional, or mythic. How does one argue against this kind of a...?
Prabhupada: Krsna is historical fact. It is not imagination. It is, to think like that, is imaginative. Krsna... The Mahabharata is there. It is accepted by all Indian authority, and Krsna is a historical figure. How it can be imaginative? So... he may think like that, like a madman, but India's leader will not accept that. Especially the acaryas who are controlling the spiritual life of India, they do not accept a lunatic foreigner speaking like that.
Hayagriva: He writes, "According to the religious and philosophic tradition of Europe, the valid status of all the highest values, the good, true and beautiful, was bound up with their being properties of ultimate and supreme being, namely God. All went well as long as what passed for natural science gave no offense to this conception. Trouble began when science ceased to disclose in the objects of knowledge the possession of any such properties. Then some roundabout method had to be devised for substantiating them." In other words, science began to investigate the phenomenal universe without admitting the proprietorship of anyone, of God, and this brings a breakdown in morality and value. So Dewey attempts to reassemble these shattered values in a philosophical way, but he, like science, attempts to do so without recognizing the proprietorship of an ultimate and supreme being.
Prabhupada: That is another lunacy, because everything has a proprietor. So why this big cosmic manifestation will not have a proprietor? To accept the proprietor is natural, and that is logical. And not to accept a proprietor, that is lunacy. How it can be possible? Just like we give this example: We are standing on the land. We know that there is government, there is proprietor. And a few yards after, when this ocean begins, how we can think of that the ocean has no proprietor, no government? How any philosopher and man having logic can believe it? What is the answer?
Hayagriva: Well, he felt that science dealt a death blow to the religions as we know them, to the orthodox religions.
Prabhupada: No, religion we have repeatedly explained. Religion means to accept the laws of God. That is religion.
Hayagriva: He re..., excuse me, he refers to historical religion.
Prabhupada: Historical... It is historical. The whole cosmic manifestation has a date of creation; therefore it is historical. Anything material which has a beginning, that, that is history, it has got a history. So people do not know how long before this material world or cosmic manifestation was created. It is beyond their conception. Even the mathematical count, millions and trillions and millions, will not do, when he began, but it has got a history--beyond the calculation of so-called scientist and mathematician, but there is history. According to Vedic description there is history. There is history of Manu, there is history of, of Brahma. So in this way there is a regular history. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita a small instance of history is being given: sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmano viduh, that the Brahma's daytime, just like we have got solar calculation, twelve hours' daytime, so that twelve hours of Brahma is calculated sahara-yuga-paryantam. One yuga means forty-three hundred thousands of years. Similarly, thousand times, that is Brahma's twelve hours. So everything is relative. We are tiny people. We have got history of this world, some thousands of years, but Brahma is greater than the human being. His history is different. Here everything is relative. My history is different from an ant's history. Similarly a man's history is different from Brahma's history. So historical does not mean whatever you have calculated, that is history. History is relative according to the person. So these people, they have no information of the greater personalities than us, but we have got information from Vedic literature. In the higher planetary system, there the duration of life, standard of life is different from here.
So in this, on this platform, mostly the philosopher, scientist, they are Dr. Frogs. So their calculation is not correct. So whatever they cannot calculate, they take it as myth, imagination, that just a foreign. Even for ordinary human being to think of Brahma's duration of life, huh, forty-three hundred thousand multiplied by one thousand, and that becomes twelve hours of Brahma, because it is beyond your calculation, he thinks it imaginary. So unless one has got thorough knowledge of the whole universe, so for him it is imaginary. But it..., one man's imaginary may be a fact to the other man. It depends on the knowledge. So unfortunately, the so-called scientists, philosophers on this planet, they are thinking in their own terms and they are taking it final. So they must think other things as mythological, imaginary. But actually that is not the fact.
Hayagriva: Dewey was an American writing in the early part of the twentieth century, and he writes, "Logic demands that in imagination we wipe the slate clean and start afresh by asking what would be the idea of the unseen." In other words, he feels that it's time to set aside the orthodox, what he calls superstitious religions, and create a new religion. In other words, we must define God and religion anew.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is required. Because in the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is also accepted that except a Vedic religion, all others are cheating religion because they have no perfect knowledge. It is clearly stated that cheating type of religion is rejected from the Bhagavata religion. Bhagavata... The sum and substance of Bhagavata religion is accepting God as the supreme controller. Satyam param dhimahi. This is beginning. And what is that Absolute Truth? Janmady asya yatah, itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah svarat: that there is a principal, Brahman, from whom everything has come. So unless you find out what is the ultimate source of emanation, the knowledge is perfect, hum, imperfect. But you must have to admit, from your experience, that everything has a source of emanation. Anything has. You cannot go beyond your experience. You see this table. This table has got a history. Somebody has collected the wood and he has made into a shape. So everything that you see, it has got a history. So similarly the whole creation, it has got a history, and to know who has created, janmady asya yatah, that is perfect knowledge. If you do not know, if you cannot reach, that is your inability. Don't think that it is imaginary, mythological. That is your imperfect of knowledge. You cannot reach, and you make a conclusion like a crazy man. That is not philosophical at all.
So there is no question of starting a new religion. The religion is already there, but poor people, they do not accept it. The simple thing is that somebody must be the supreme controller. He is God. And everything under His control. Actually, if somebody asks, "What is your experience?" so the real experience is that we see two things. One thing is matter, inert matter, without any consciousness. Another thing we see, another element: with consciousness. Two things we see. You cannot go beyond this. And above two, these two things, there is one controller--the third element. The third element is the Absolute Truth, and these two elements, one inert and one living, they are categories. So this is a fact. So the third element, the controller of the living, animate and inanimate, the controller is the Supreme Lord. So this is simple philosophy. Everyone can understand that there is a supreme controller, and both these visible, animate and inanimate objects, they are controlled by Him. This is a simple fact. Why these big, big philosophers cannot understand this? Anyone can understand. What is the difficulty?
Hayagriva: He says, "What I have been criticizing is the identification of the ideal with a particular being, especially when that identification makes necessary the conclusion that this being is outside of nature," that is, transcendental, "and what I have tried to show is that the ideal itself has its roots in natural conditions. It emerges when the imagination idealizes existence by laying hold of the possibilities offered to thought and action." In other words, there is no God outside of nature. God has His roots in nature.
Prabhupada: Why does he say? That is his inexperience. God means supreme controller. So everything is being controlled. So how he can say there is not God? That is his imperfect knowledge. The nature is going on in perfect order, and we have got experience that without being a director, controller... (break) ...first proposition, that the natural phenomena, that is going on in systematic way, and we have no experience anything going on in a systematic way has no controller. How they can think of this big phenomena without any controller? At least any sane man cannot think like that, that it is going on automatically, it is happening automatically. The season is changing in time, the sun is rising in time, the moon is rising--everything is going on systematically--and how he thinks that there is no controller, there is no God? That is insanity. To become atheist is, means, a greatest insane person. It has no meaning to become atheist.
Hayagriva: He wouldn't consider himself an atheist, but...
Prabhupada: Anyone who cannot think of a supreme controller, he is an insane man. He is not a sane man. How he can propose? Where is his experience? Everything is going on under some control. Even this wonderful machine, computer, that requires an operator. So how one can think of without controller things are going on very systematically? This is insanity. It has no meaning.
Hayagriva: He sees God emerging as man's striving for perfection.
Prabhupada: No, that God is there. Man's perfection will depend on his ability to understand God. God is already there. It is not that a perfect man is by imagination creating God. Anything created by man, that is controlled. God is the supreme controller. So man is dying under the control of the Supreme, so how man can create God? He is already under the rules of God, that he must die, he must suffer from disease, he must become old. So if he cannot control what is already imposed by God, how he can think of God? How he can create a God? That is also another insanity. First of all you become independent of the laws of God, then you can think of creation of God. You are completely under the supremacy of the Supreme Lord. How you can think of creating God? That is another insanity. So all these atheistic person who are thinking that "We can create God," "God is imagination," they are all insane person.
Hayagriva: He says, "Use of the words 'God' or 'divine' to convey the union of actual with ideal may protect man from his sense of isolation and from consequent despair or defiance..."
Prabhupada: That will never happen. The so-called unity of man by the imaginative process of so-called intelligent philosopher, it has never become possible, neither it will become possible, because every man has got little independence. So unless they are controlled, they will assert their independence, and by this imaginative process they cannot be united. That is another insanity. History has never proved this in the past, and it is not going on in the present, so naturally in the future it will not be possible. That is sane man's conclusion.
Hayagriva: You..., when you discussed Dewey with Syamasundara Prabhu, you said that Dewey wants to make God his scapegoat--why does he mention the word God, and he uses the word God to serve his own ends. His philosophic conception is the working union of the ideal and the actual. This is rather vague, but this is his definition of God: Man striving for perfection.
Prabhupada: He can define, but he must be a very, what is called, sane man to define. The sane man's definition of God is there. Just like everyone says, "God is great." So now if he can define what is the greatness... The greatness, if one man is very rich, we consider him great man. If a man is very wise we call him a great man. If a man is very strong or influential or beautiful... Greatness according to our estimation. So all this greatness must be there in God. God must be the richest, God must be the strongest, God must be the most beautiful, God must be wisest. In this way, six opulences calculated, and when these opulences are in completeness, that is God. So that completeness we find in the history Krsna. In the history of humanity it is very easy to find out that when Krsna was present on this planet, so He proved the strongest, the most influential, the most beautiful, the supreme wise--everything--supreme famous. Krsna's fame, fame is still going on. Krsna's knowledge, stated in the Bhagavad-gita, is still being studied all over the world. This is the proof that He is God. And all saintly persons in India, they are not controlled by these foreign Dr. Frogs. So these big, big acaryas, like Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka, Sankaracarya, and Caitanya Mahaprabhu, all big acaryas, they have accepted Krsna as the Supreme Lord. So there is complete uniformity of the authorities in the past, present and future. So here is God. If one cannot accept Him God, then he is insane. With so many evidences, and it is practical. Many evidences when Krsna was present He showed; that is history. But these imperfect Dr. Frog, when they see God is doing something uncommon, they take it "Myth, mythology."
Hayagriva: Now...
Prabhupada: God... Huh?
Hayagriva: They take it?
Prabhupada: They take it as mythology. Myth.
Hayagriva: Mythology.
Prabhupada: Hah. Just like Krsna is lifting the hill, that what is the difficulty for God to lift a hill if He is all-powerful? But as soon as they read it, that Krsna is lifting hill, they will take it as mythology. So when God shows that "I am God," that is mythology, and they imagine God. That is rascaldom. When God comes and shows His godly power, they take it myth, mythology. And they imagine God according to your definition. Is that sanity? The acaryas have described Him: "Yes. Krsna lifted this Govardhana Hill," and they have appreciated. And they are taking as mythology. That when there is Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum a... These rascals, when God shows His godly power, they take it mythology. Just see how much fool they are, and we are to follow these Dr. Frogs.
Hayagriva: He differs from Comte and Marx in that he did not believe that humanity is the object of worship. In fact, he excludes everything as an object of worship. He writes, "Nature produces whatever gives reinforcement and direction, but also it occasions discord and confusion. 'The divine' is thus a term of human choice and aspiration."
Prabhupada: No. There is no question of human choice. Can you say that death is my choice? Huh? It is forced. So the, wherefrom the force is coming, that is God. Nobody wants to die, but there is force. You must die. Nobody wants to become old man. You must become old man. The sanity is to find out wherefrom this enforcement is coming. That is Supreme. Just like the government. If you disobey the orders of government, immediately you will be punished. So we can understand there is supreme authority. Similarly, I do not want to die. I am enforced to die. So there must be some supreme authority. That supreme authority is God. Either call nature or God, whatever you call, there is something supreme which is controlling you. How you can philosophize and imagine that man can imagine God, man can imagine this and...? That is insanity.
Hayagriva: He says, "A humanistic religion, if it excludes our relation to nature, is pale and thin, as it is presumptuous when it takes humanity as an object of worship."
Prabhupada: Humanity is not worship. Every, every... According to God conscious person, everything is worshipable, even an ant, but supreme worshipable is God. Isvarah paramah krsnah. So that is wanted. Nature, these persons, they are taking as nature as the Supreme. But those who are actually in awareness of God, they know that God is the controller of nature also. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. Nature is matter. Matter cannot act independently. In the Bhagavad-gita, as (indistinct), the difference, what is the difference between matter and the living being. The difference is the matter is being handled, controlled by the living being. Therefore living being is the superior nature, and matter is inferior nature. Bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca. This earth, water, air, fire, etc., everything, these are inferior nature. Just try to understand nature. And above this inferior nature there is superior nature. That, the inferior nature, is a vast ocean, but the superior nature, man, has a big ship. The ocean will not allow to walk over it, and they have control over the oceen, not exclusive control, but little control. Because he is living being, he can cross over the big mass of water by inventing some means, so that at least they are controlling to some extent. But above this ocean and the man who is trying to control over the ocean, there is another controller. That is supreme controller. That is God. It is very easy to understand that there are two natures: one, the active nature; inactive nature. And above these both, active and inactive, there is another active personality who is controlling both of them. That we can understand by Vedic literature very clearly. There is no difficulty. But those who are obstinate, they will not accept. That is their misfortune. What can be done? But this is the fact.
Hayagriva: In the, in the realm of philosophy and religion...
Prabhupada: In the history we find that Krsna went within the sea. Within the sea. Krsna penetrated the universe. He is God. God can do that. We have no conception of God, and when God comes and shows His godly power, we take it as mythology. Then what, how God will be proved? When you see Him doing uncommon activities, you say it is mythology; and he does not see, he will say there is no God. This is your position. So this is not sanity. It is all insanity. Let them talk all this nonsense. We do not accept that.
Hayagriva: He says in the realm of philosophy and religion, certainty is impossible. He says, "The moment philosophy supposes it can find a final and comprehensive solution, it ceases to be inquiry and becomes either apologetics or propaganda. Any philosophy that in its quest for certainty ignores the reality of the uncertain in the ongoing processes of nature denies the conditions out of which it arises."
Prabhupada: There is uncertain when you do not accept the reality. The reality is God, and God is explaining how things are going on, but you take it as mythology. Then how you will know?
Hayagriva: No way.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: No way.
Prabhupada: You are rascal. When it is explained by God Himself, and actually by doing it, you do not accept it. And still you imagine. So your position is very precarious. When God comes Himself and shows Himself, His activities, we think it is mythology. Then how we can be convinced? Direct perception and authority. And the direct perception, when He comes you take it that it is mythology. When the direct perception history is written about Krsna in Mahabharata, and then you take it as mythology. Then how he will believe it? And the authority accepts, "Yes, Krsna is the Supreme. He has done it." You say, "I don't accept it." Then how you will be convinced? What is the way to convince you? Huh? What is the way, possible way?
Hayagriva: He says, for him he says, "There is but one sure road of access to truth: the road of patient, cooperative inquiry, operating by means of observation, experiment, record, and controlled reflection."
Prabhupada: Record is there already, Mahabharata, and those who have seen, they have confirmed it. Vyasadeva has confirmed, Narada has confirmed. Arjuna talked with Him personally, he has confirmed, and everything is there in the record, but you don't believe. Then how you can be convinced? Neither you have got perfect senses to see. Then what is the way to convince you? You will remain always in darkness. There is no way out. You can, within your dark well, you can go on imagining, Dr. Frog, but you will never have perfect knowledge.
Hayagriva: Well that's the conclusion of John Dewey. Most of the other points have already been dealt with. (end)
Philosophy Discussions KIERKE.HAY
Soren Aabye Kierkegaard
Hayagriva: This is Kierkegaard, who was a Danish philosopher, who lived from 1813 to 1855. He is generally regarded as the father of existentialism. He was Christian. He wrote, or he believed, that if the truths of religion are not innate within man, they must be brought to us by a teacher. If God comes to teach as He is, man would be over awed or over..., overcome. Therefore he comes as a servant of God in human form.
Prabhupada: So man's general position is as good as animal. Therefore in the human society there is system of education. But man, being advanced in consciousness, he can be properly educated so that he can understand what is God by the teachings of authority, and that is our Vedic system. In the human form of life--not generally but in special cases--they are very much inquisite to understand about God. That is technically called brahma-jijnasa. inquiring about the Absolute. And that is only possible in the human form of life. Generally, any human being can be educated in the spiritual life or God consciousness, but if anyone awakens his inquiry, as it is stated, tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam, if one is actually anxious to inquire about God or the supreme knowledge, then he has to approach a guru. That's a fact. Without approaching a bona fide guru there is no possibility of understanding the nature of God and our relationship with Him. So one has to approach a guru. To accept a guru is not a fashion, it is necessity. If one is actually inquisitive, it is a necessity. So the qualification of guru is also given there, that what sort of guru you should search out. Sabde pare ca nisnatam. A guru is he who has taken full training in the ocean of spiritual knowledge or Vedic knowledge, sabde pare. Sabde means the Vedic words, or vibration of sound, but that is not ordinary sound, material sound, but spiritual sound. Just like we are chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra, this spiritual sound. So one who has taken full bathing in the ocean of spiritual sound, and how he has realized the symptom of his life is that such guru is no more interested in materialistic way of life. Such guru does not manufacture gold or jugglery words to attract some foolish men and make money. That is not guru. Guru means who has no more interest in material things. Sabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam. He has taken shelter of the Supreme Lord, completely satiating his material desire. So one should approach such guru, then tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya. By serving such guru, bona fide guru, and surrendering unto him, and then questioning him, he can make actual progress in spiritual life, and then he understands properly what is God, what is our relationship with Him. That is perfection of human life.
Hayagriva: But isn't he incorrect in say..., in maintaining that if God comes to teach as He is, man would be overawed; therefore He comes as a servant of God in human form.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: But Krsna came as He was and taught.
Prabhupada: No. Krsna came as He was, but people misunderstood Him, because He was talking just like a human being. But people... And they, when He asked sarva-dharman parityajya, people thought, "It is too much," so they are misguided. Therefore later on He came as a devotee, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, to teach how to approach God. That is the function of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya understood His activities, and he wrote about one hundred verses appreciating Caitanya Mahaprabhu's activity, and the first one is,
vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yoga-
siksartham ekah purusah puranah
sri-krsna-caitanya-sarira-dhari
krpambudhir yas tam aham prapadye
The, his, he understood Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, while they were talking on the Vedanta philosophy, that Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the same Krsna; now He has come to teach the human society bhakti-yoga, which is vairagya-vidya. Devotional life means renounced life. Vairagya-vidya, vairagya means renunciation. Anyone who has no more interest in materialistic way of life, that is bhakti-yoga. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti... So here is the person, Sri Krsna Caitanya, in the form of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He is none but the same original Krsna. He has come to teach us the same philosophy as He did while teaching Arjuna Bhagavad-gita, but this time He has come as a devotee of Krsna. Similarly, another authority, Rupa Gosvami, understood Him, that "Here is Krsna, and He is the most munificent incarnation, because Krsna, in order to give Himself to the devotee, demanded full surrender. And here Caitanya Mahaprabhu, without any demand, He is not only giving Krsna but the love of Krsna. Therefore He is namo maha-vadanyaya krsna-prema-pradaya." So Krsna, the Supreme Lord, is affectionate towards us because we are all sons. We are rotting in this material way of life. So He comes Himself, as He is. He comes as a devotee. He leaves His instruction in the Bhagavad-gita. Again He advises His devotees to preach the philosophy of Bhagavad-gita. So He is always anxious to enlighten the human being how to go back to home, back to Godhead.
Hayagriva: Kierkegaard wrote one book called Works of Love, in which he saw God as the hidden source of, of love. He says man, "A man must love God in unconditional, in unconditional obedience and love Him in adoration. It would be ungodliness if any man dared to love himself in this way or dared to love another man in this way or dared to permit another man to love him in this way. God you must love in unconditional obedience even if that which He demands of you may seem injurious to you, for God's wisdom is incomparable with respect to your own."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the instruction of Bhagavad-gita. God demands that "You give up your own plans or any other's so-called intelligent person's plan or philosopher's plan. Take My plan," sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, "just surrender unto Me fully, then I shall take care of you so that you will not suffer." That is our position. If we fully depend on Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then He will guide us how to make progress back to home, back to Godhead.
Hayagriva: As far as defining love, what is love--people speak of love--he says, "If someone asks what is love, Paul answers, 'It is the fulfillment of the law.' Love is a matter of conscience, and hence it is not a matter of impulse and inclination, nor is it a matter of emotion, nor a matter for intellectual calculation. There is only one kind of love." And he says that is spiritual love.
Prabhupada: Yes. Love in the material world is impossible. In the material world everyone is interested for his own sense gratification. The love between man and woman, young boy and young girl, that is not love, that is lust, because both the parties are interested in sense gratification. But that is not love. Love means the parties, they will not think of his own sense gratification but the sense gratification of the beloved. That is pure love. That is not possible in the material world, but we see the example of love in the picture of Vrndavana. In the Vrndavana village, everyone--man, animals and fruits, flowers, water, everything--they are only for loving Krsna. They do not want any return from Krsna. That is real love, anyabhilasita-sunyam. If one loves God with some motive, that is material love. Pure love is simply to satisfy the desires of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore in the material world the love, word "love," is misused. The propensity of lusty desires is going on as love. Real love is only with God--individually, collectively, anyway. And that Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the supreme object of love, either by adoration or by serving or making friendship with Him, or loving Him as child, or loving Him as beloved--there are five different relationships: santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya--that is real love.
Hayagriva: And he says, "Ultimately, love of God is the decisive thing. From it stems love to the neighbor. If you love God above else, then you also love your neighbor, and in your neighbor every man. To help another man to love God is to love the other man. To be helped by another man to love God is to be loved."
Prabhupada: That is our Krsna consciousness movement. We are learning how to love God, and we are teaching the same principle to the whole world, without any discrimination, that "God is one." Not that there are different Gods of different faiths. God cannot be two. Eko brahma dvitiyam nasti. God is one. There cannot be any competitor. His name is Asamaurdhva; nobody is equal to Him, nobody is greater than Him. Therefore God is great. Nobody is equal. So in any form of religion, if love of God is instructed, that is first-class religion. It doesn't matter whether it is Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muslim religion. The test is how the followers have learned to love God. And now God being the center of love and everything being God's expansion, so a lover of God is lover of everyone. He does not discriminate that "Only man should be loved, and man should be given service." No. He is interested with all living entities, never mind in which form he is existing. So he is interested in..., lover of God loves everyone, and the love reaches everyone. The example is given in this connection. Just to water the root of the tree means to expand nourishment for all other parts of the tree, namely the trunk, branches, leaves, twigs, everything. Or to supply food in the stomach means satisfying the necessities of all parts of the body. This is the fact. God being everything, maya tatam idam sarvam, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, nothing can exist without God, and everything is expansion. Another word is there in the Visnu Purana. It is said that the fire remaining in one place distributes its heat and light. Eka-sthane sthitasyagner jyotsna vistarini yatha. The fire can distribute its heat and light although localized in a place. Similarly God, He is in His own abode, but by His energy He is present everywhere. Sarva-vyapi, all-pervading. The all-pervading feature of God means everything is manifestation of His energy. Nothing can exist without God. But it does not mean everything is God. Everything is resting on His energy, but not everything God. In spite of expanding, God, by His different potencies, He keeps His personality. That is God.
Hayagriva: Concerning individuality, Kierkegaard writes, "God is the origin and wellspring of all individuality. To have individuality is to believe in the individuality of everyone else, for the individuality in not mine. It is the gift of God through which He permits me to be, and through which He permits everyone to be."
Prabhupada: That's the fact. He explains..., this fact is explained in the Vedic literature, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam, Katha Upanisad, that He is also living being and we are also living being. So He is also eternal; we are also eternal. So qualitatively we are one, but quantitatively we are different, because eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman: that one, singular number, eternal living being, Krsna, or God, He is maintaining everyone. So that is the difference. The one living being, the Supreme Living Being, the great living being, is maintaining other living beings who are part and parcel of the Supreme. So both of us, we are the living beings, individual, eternal, but God is Supreme; we are subordinate. That is difference. So our natural position should be to love God, being part and parcel of God.
Hayagriva: Concerning the...
Prabhupada: (aside:) Wind it in the morning.
Hayagriva: Concerning the purpose of prayer, he writes, "The true relation in prayer is not when God hears what is prayed for, but when the person praying continues to pray until he is the one who hears what God wills."
Prabhupada: Yes. That's very nice. He becomes qualified to understand God and to talk with God, to take direction of God. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:
tesam satata-yuktanam
bhajatam priti-purvakam
dadami buddhi-yogam tam
yena mam upayanti (te)
Our ultimate goal is to give up this material world and go back to home, back to Godhead. So this being ultimate goal of life, if we offer prayer to the Supreme Lord... Not only prayer. Prayer is one of the service. This is also nine. There are different, nine kinds of service:
sravanam kirtanam visnoh
smaranam pada-sevanam
arcanam vandanam dasyam
sakhyam atma-nivedanam
Vandanam. Prayer means vandanam. So this is also service. Either you take all the nine different items, or you take some of them, or at least one of them, then you will make progress in spiritual life. So some of them offer prayers, just like Christians, Muhammadans, they offer prayer. So it is as good as the Hindus give service in the temple, decorates the Deity, cleanses the temple and offers food. In this way they are engaged. This is called arcanam. Arcanam is also devotional service as well as offering prayer. So by this devotional service one makes progress in spiritual life, and when he is sincere in his service, then God is within him, He takes charge of him and gives him instruction how quickly and swiftly he can approach God. So this is fact. Our... He is not hankering after our service. He is complete in Himself. He doesn't require anyone's service. But if we offer service to Him, then we become purified, and... (break) ...complete purification. We can talk with God, we can see God, we can take His instruction, as Arjuna is talking with God, personally taking His instruction and acting according to His instruction.
Hayagriva: Kierkegaard felt that God's will... He says, "There is a God. His will is made known to me in holy scripture and in my conscience."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: And that the..., God intervenes in the world through the individual acting according to scripture.
Prabhupada: Yes. These is a word, sadhu sastra guru vakya cittete koriya aikya. We can approach God by understanding a saintly person, by studying the Vedic scriptures, and explained directly by the bona fide spiritual master. So sadhu means saintly person, and sastra means scriptures, and guru means spiritual master--and that they should be corroborated. A sadhu is he who talks in terms of scripture. Similarly, guru is he who talks in terms of scripture. Guru cannot manufacture words which is not in the scriptures. And that is not scripture which does not tally with the words of guru and sadhu. So these three items should be corroborated, and then we can understand who is guru, who is sadhu, and who is, what is scripture. Then we take instruction from them, and we can perfectly make progress towards understanding of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Hayagriva: He says, "The only thing which enters Him, God, who is all-majestic, is obedience."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "It is so easy to see that one to whom everything is equally important and equally insignificant can only be interested in one thing: obedience."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is wanted, and Krsna, or God, demands that. Full obedience. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. That is the qualification. Tad viddhi pranipatena. So original obedience is to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, similarly obedience to the spiritual master is representative of God. So anyone who carries out the order of God, he can become bona fide guru, because he is not manufacturing anything. He is simply presenting what God is speaking, or the sastra is speaking. God, when He comes as incarnation, He does not speak anything which is not in the scripture. That, just like in the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna gives reference to the Brahma-sutra, Vedanta-sutra. He is God. Whatever He is speaking, that is final, that's, that's a fact. Still, He is giving honor to the Vedanta-sutra. Brahma-sutra-padais caiva hetumadbhir viniscitaih. He is giving reference to the Brahma-sutra because spiritual knowledge is asserted there with logic and philosophy. So we cannot accept anyone as incarnation of God if He speaks nonsense, not corroborating with the standard scripture.
Hayagriva: Concerning worship, he writes, "The only adequate way to express the sense of God's majesty is to worship Him, to renounce everything as an act of worship offered to God, and so not because He needs to use you as an instrument but to renounce everything yourself as the most insignificant suprafluity, an article of luxury. That means to worship." That is, worship is renunciation.
Prabhupada: Yes. Worship is the beginning, begins with renunciation, or the renouncing any motive. Ahaituky apratihata. Our only business is to love God. That is first-class religious system which teaches the followers to love God without any motive. Ahaituky apratihata. Such kind of worship will not be checked by any material condition. In any condition of life one can love God. God will help. Buddhi-yogam dadami tam. That is pure worship and pure love for God. (break)
Hayagriva: This is the last point we're making on Kierkegaard. It's concerning God's personality.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He writes, "God is certainly personal, but whether He wishes to be so in relation to the individual depends on whether it pleases God."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "It is the grace of God that He wishes to be personal in relation to you. If you throw away His grace, He punishes you by behaving objectively, or impersonally, towards you."
Prabhupada: (laughing) That's right. That is very good. Impersonal con..., conception of God is a troublesome business. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: klesah adhikataras tesam avyakta asakta cetasam. Find out this verse.
Hari-sauri:
kleso 'dhikataras tesam
avyaktasakta-cetasam
avyakta hi gatir duhkham
dehavadbhir avapyate
"For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."
Prabhupada: Purport.
Hari-sauri: (reads entire purport to Bhagavad-gita As It Is, Chapter 12, Verse 5)
Hayagriva: He says, "If you throw away His grace, He punishes you by behaving objectively toward you, and in that sense one may say that the world has not got a personal God in spite of all the proofs. But while dons and parsons," that is priests, "drivel on," talk on, "about the millions of truths about God's personality, the truth is that there are no longer the men living who could bear the pressure and weight of having a personal God." Because he feels that a personal God would make demands on man, and so therefore men reject the idea of a personal God.
Prabhupada: Yes. Personal God means He is demanding, as Krsna is demanding, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru: "Always think of Me, or offer Me worship, offer Me obeisances, and become My devotee. And give up all other engagement. Simply be engaged in My service." This is the demand of God, and if we carry out His demand, then we are perfect. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti. If you simply carry out the orders of God then you become qualified, fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. This is clearly stated. Tyaktva deham. We have to give up this body, but a devotee, a pure devotee, after giving up this body, he doesn't accept another material body, but in his original, spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead.
Hayagriva: That's the end of Kierkegaard. (end)
Philosophy Discussions SARTRE.HAY
Jean-Paul Sartre
Hayagriva: And this is a very short section on Jean-Paul Sartre. The...
Prabhupada: Who is he?
Hayagriva: The... He is a contemporary French philosopher.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Hayagriva: Probably the most famous of the French philosophers. Perhaps the most well known philosopher in this century. He calls himself an existentialist. He calls himself an atheistic existentialist in that he believes existence precedes essence. That the essence of man... According to creation by design, God has the essence of man in His mind, and He creates man just as a paper cutter creates some kind of a figure. Sartre doesn't believe this. He says, "Atheistic existentialism, which I represent, is more coherent. It states that if God does not exist, there is at least one being in whom existence precedes essence, a being who exists before he can be defined by any concept, and that this being is man, or human reality." So that for Sartre a human reality is all in all.
Prabhupada: So wherefrom the human reality comes? There are no realities also, so why he is stressing on human realities?
Hayagriva: There again, he would emphasize accident--he uses the word--that man is thrown into the world, or cast into the world.
Prabhupada: Thrown by whom? "Thrown into the world," as soon you say like that, then the next question will be, "Thrown by whom?"
Devotee: They don't like that question.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hayagriva: He...
Devotee: They do not like that question.
Hayagriva: Well, he says, "Existentialism isn't so atheistic that it wears itself out showing God doesn't exist. Rather, it declares that even if God did exist, that would change nothing. There you've got our point of view."
Prabhupada: No, if you exist as others exist, then what is the fault there? God also exists. He exists. Others also existing. So if there is God, what is the fault if He exists? Why he is denying the existence of God? Let them all exist.
Hayagriva: First of all, he feels that God does not exist.
Prabhupada: Why? If you exist, if others exist, why God will not exist?
Hayagriva: That is his position as an atheist.
Prabhupada: No, atheist, that is there should be reasonable proposal. If you speak something nonsense, that "I exist," why he, does he bring the word God, if God does not exist? God is there, but He denies the existence. That is atheism. Otherwise, why bringing the word God? If God does not exist, why he is bringing the word God?
Hayagriva: He wants, he's trying to...
Prabhupada: That means God is there. He wants his existence; he does not want God to exist. That is his proposal.
Hayagriva: Yes. Emphasis is on man.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is nonsense. If you believe in your existence, you should believe in others' existence also. Actually there is. Human being is not only existing, but there are so many, 8,400,000 different forms of living being. They are existing. So God is also one of them. According to Vedic understanding of God, that God is also one of the living being, but He is the chief, supreme living being. That is the difference. So, in the ordinary understanding a man is better than the animal, and another intelligent man is better than the nonintelligent man. So similarly, you go on with comparative study, one after another, when you come to the final living being, He is the Supreme. As it is said in the Bhagavad-gita, mattah parataram nanyat: there is no more superior living being, and that is God. That we have got practical experience. You may be more intelligent than me, he may be more intelligent than you, go on, go on searching. So when you find somebody that He is the final intelligent, that is God. So what is the difficulty to understand? Why God shall not exist? If one person better intelligent than me he can exist, so why a person who exceeds all others in intelligence, He cannot exist? So there is no meaning of atheism. That is ignorance.
Hayagriva: By..., by setting aside or denying the existence of God, he is able to write this: "Thus there is no human..."
Prabhupada: That, that kind of understanding, denying the existence, that is foolishness. How he can? We have given the definition, that practical field you will find one man is more intelligent than the other man, or one animal is better intelligent than other animal. That is positive, comparative, superiority, divisions. So naturally we can think of, at least, that we approach this way to a certain personality, He is the final intelligent. No more exceeds in the intelligence than Him, and no more equal intelligence. That is God. There is possibility of such person's existence. How he can deny it?
Hayagriva: But if God exists, then...
Prabhupada: God exists, must exist!
Hayagriva: ...then He must be the center.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: Then He must be the center.
Prabhupada: No, no. He has to accept that God exists. He cannot deny it, because practically we see. You may be intelligent, more intelligent than me, and he may be more intelligent you. So go on, go on, and find out, if you have got power, that we come to a person there is no more more intelligent than Him, as God defines: mattah parataram nanyat. And Krsna, "Above Me there is no more intelligent person." There is not. So you cannot deny this existence, a superpowerful, superintelligent person, because we practically see. Not that everyone is on the equal level. That is not the case. He is a philosopher, another philosopher more intelligent than him, another philosopher more intelligent. So you go on searching. Anyway, either in richness or in intelligence or in power, strength, beauty, there is comparative superlative degrees. So God means the superlative degree in everything. How he can deny this existence? That is not possible.
Hayagriva: According to him he says, "The first principle of existentialism is that man is nothing else but what he makes of himself, since there is no God to conceive of human nature."
Prabhupada: When, if he can see that man exists in his own idea, so why not a superman who exists in his own idea, or his own capacity, completely independent of anyone? Why, how he can deny that? That is not possible.
Hayagriva: He feels that... He puts a great deal of emphasis on man's responsibility, of his existence on himself.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: That since he's not responsible to God, he's responsible for himself.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Or to himself.
Prabhupada: What does he mean, "responsible"? Responsible, if somebody gives you duties, and if you feel responsible to discharge that duty, then you are responsible. But there is no duty, nobody is to see above you, then where is your responsibility?
Hayagriva: Well, he feels that all values... If there is no God, all values disappear. There are no values, there's no criteria.
Prabhupada: So his value also disappear.
Hayagriva: So from this he concludes that without God, everything is possible. He says, "Indeed, everything is permissible if God does not exist. If God did not exist, everything would be possible. That is the very starting point of existentialism."
Prabhupada: But he does not know what, what is the meaning of God. We have several times repeated this. God is the Supreme, Supreme Being. So we have defined in so many ways. Another thing that God is the Supreme, Supreme means He is supreme father. The Supreme everything means He is supreme father also. The conception of father is there. So as we are standing, we are talking with that gentleman priest, that mother nature, nature is giving, producing so many living entities. So she is supposed to be the mother. And as soon as we accept mother, there must be father. Mother cannot, alone cannot give birth to any offspring, so there must be the conception of father. And that is, practically we are seeing that mother nature... We say "mother nature" because she gives birth to so many forms of life, and if we accept mother, then you must to accept father, and that God is supreme father. How he can deny it? Father's duty is to maintain the children. So all living beings are being maintained, so there must be father. How he can deny that?
Hayagriva: How, how, well, he does. He says, his very words, he says, "Since we have discarded God the father, there has to be someone to invent values. Before you become alive, life is nothing. It's up to you to give it a meaning, and value is nothing else but the meaning that you choose."
Prabhupada: I will have to give meaning of my life? So what is that idea?
Hayagriva: You must give meaning to your own life. Since, since there is no God to give life meaning, man must invent his own meaning.
Prabhupada: Everyone will invent his meaning.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: Then where, where there will be symmetry?
Hayagriva: Si..., similitude.
Prabhupada: No, symmetry.
Devotee: Symmetry.
Prabhupada: Yes. How the people will live peacefully in the society? I will give my own idea, you will give your own idea, he will give his own idea, then where there is collaboration? No, there is no possibility. Then it is chaotic condition. Then why do you want government? You live without government. You don't require government.
Hayagriva: Lately he's turned into a Marxist.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, there is government. In the Marxist, Communist country, there is government, so how you can avoid the government and leadership? That is not possible. Then the society is in chaotic condition.
Hayagriva: He believes that each man is responsible for other men, but that he believes..., he also believes that each man has the freedom to work out his own destiny, so to speak.
Prabhupada: Say, suppose if I want to do with you some, something good, and you are free. So if you don't accept me, then I don't accept that, that is, means chaotic. How you are responsible for me? If I don't obey, so how you can become responsible for me? So he says that a man should be responsible for other men. But if he does not obey you, where is the responsibility? So crazy fellow that.
Hayagriva: It appears to be contradictory.
Prabhupada: Everything is contradictory. That must be contradictory. Unless there is standard idea, standard thing, there must be contradiction.
Hayagriva: This is the last point. He says, "To be man..."
Prabhupada: Therefore we say first of all God.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: There is Supreme Person, and we should be all obedient servant to Him. Then the society will be in order. That, that is responsibility. God gives us some duty, and if we carry that, that is our responsibility, and that makes the whole society perfect. That should... In the beginning if we reject God, so then it is chaotic. So religion means to avoid this chaotic condition, and in order, fulfilling the responsibility given by God, we make progress, and finally we live with God personally. That is our eternal right.
Hayagriva: His final point is that..., is, "To be man means to reach toward being God, or, if you prefer, man fundamentally is the desire to be God."
Prabhupada: So he, at last he accept there is God. (laughter) Otherwise what is the meaning of going to God? Yes, he is trying to deny God when there is God. Unless there is God, where is the question of accepting or denying? He is denying in the other way; that means there is God.
Devotee: As soon as he mentions God he's proved there is God.
Prabhupada: No, as soon as he denies God, there is God.
Devotee: Or denies, because he has admitted God...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: ...one way or another.
Hayagriva: He says that he prefers to set the question aside, but at the same time...
Prabhupada: That is the main question. That is the main question, that God has created everything. He has created you, He has created your mind, intelligence, your body, your existential circumstances--everything He has created. So how you can deny God? In the beginning, that Bible says, "In the beginning there was God." Is it not?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: And the Vedanta also it is, aham evasam evagre. That God says that "I existed in the beginning." Here the creation is temporary, existence is temporary, and annihilation is also temporary. This is material nature. And we can understand it very easily, that this body, your body, my body is created at a certain date, it will continue to a certain date, and it will be finished. This is material understanding. Anything you will take, it has a beginning, it has a duration of period to exist, then finished. So if you take broader way, the whole cosmic manifestation, it has a beginning and it has an end and it has a duration of period to exist. But before this creation, who was there? That is God. Otherwise how the creation is possible if God is not there before the creation?
Hayagriva: Well, new philosophy means to resolve this question. You can't possibly resolve it by setting it aside, if it's the major question. It's been the major question of all philosophers we studied. So how can you say let us just set it aside?
Prabhupada: No. What the philosophers, the... Not all philosophers they denied the existence, but from our practical study we can see that take personal existence, that before I got this body, there was my father and mother. So how can I deny this fact? This whole cosmic manifestation is exactly like the manifestation of my body. Everything you take, there is practical experience. So far you take this spectacle, it is created by some spectacle..., spectacle manufacturer, and it will exist for some time, then it will annihilate. Similarly, the whole creation, annihilation. There is another crude example, just like earthen pot is made from the clay, earth. It is, it gets a shape, and it continues to exist for a certain time, and then it is broken. So when it is broken, again it is clay. So in the beginning the clay was there, in the middle there is a form, and at the end again clay. So clay is the original. Similarly, God is everything original. That is explained by God in the Bhagavad-gita: aham sarvasya prabhavah. And the Vedanta says, janmady asya yatah. This is clear understanding where your existence comes from. You cannot say all of a sudden you dropped from the sky. You have your father and mother, and from them you have appeared. How you can say that "There was nobody else before my creation, and there will be nobody else after my annihilation"? That is foolishness. How you can do it? So you have to accept that before your manifestation there was your father and mother. So this is right philosophy. The mother is the material nature and father is God. So father gives the seed, and mother begets so many children. So it is a big family. Father is God and material nature is the mother, and then we, as children, we are taken care of by the father and mother, so our duty is to remain peacefully at the cost of the father and mother and become obedient to the father and mother. This is natural. Beyond this, all speculation. That will not give us real peace and prosperity. We must, have to accept. God is there, the nature is there, and we are also there, a big family. Let us live peacefully according to the order of the father. That is natural.
Ramesvara: He is describing responsibility to the family without considering the father.
Prabhupada: Family... He is also one of the member of the family, who created the family. How he, can you disobey the father?
Hayagriva: Well, he says, "First of all man exists, turns up, appears on the scene."
Prabhupada: Wherefrom the man exists? That is his foolishness.
Hayagriva: He just says he appears on the scene.
Ramesvara: He is not concerned.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Ramesvara: He is not concerned.
Prabhupada: That is his foolishness. He does not know that he appears on account of father and mother. How he can deny this? That is his foolishness. How can this man say, "I appeared all of a sudden. I dropped from the sky." It is a crazy fellow. How we can give time to hear it? That's not possible. You appeared on account of your father and mother. How can you deny it? That is not possible. Is it possible to deny it?
Hayagriva: Not intelligently.
Prabhupada: That means a rascal. A rascal can say that "I appeared without father and mother." That's not possible. So we say that everyone appears, not only human being. All animals, all plants, trees, everywhere--there are 8,400,000 species of life--they have appeared from these material elements. Either from the water... The fishes is appearing in the water, and the plants and trees, they are appearing on the land, and then insects, birds and everything. Everything is appearing. So material nature is the mother. That is accepted. So as soon as you accept mother there must be father. Where you get this conception that we are appearing without father and mother? How it, how it is possible?
Ramesvara: He just wants to put the question aside.
Prabhupada: Why? This is the primary question, wherefrom you appeared.
Ramesvara: Christians also, and the Jew, the Western religions, they say there is a God, but He has put us here in this world. So He is in His heaven, and we are here on earth, and our business now is to become happy. They also put the question aside. (end)
Philosophy Discussions FREUD.HAY
Sigmund Freud
Hayagriva: ...and on Sigmund Freud, you discussed with Syamasundara Prabhu the sexual aspects, but not the theological aspects. Freud wrote two basic books on religion, Future of an Illusion, and there was a great deal in Leonardo da Vinci, A Study in Psycho-sexuality. He writes, "Psychoanalysis, which has taught us the intimate connection between the father complex and belief in God, has shown us that the personal God is psychologically nothing but an exalted father. Youthful persons lose their religious belief as soon as the authority of the father breaks down." So he sees God as basically a father complex arising out of the need of help of the little child.
Prabhupada: That little child, how he can give up the idea of father? And how Mr. Freud can give up the idea? Was he not born by a father?
Hayagriva: He feels that...
Prabhupada: He dropped from the sky? Huh? Did, did he?
Hayagriva: He feels that this is childish.
Prabhupada: That childish, what is that childish? He had no father?
Hayagriva: He had a father, but he believed in ultimate emancipation.
Prabhupada: No, no, ultimate we shall go later on. First of all, he has to think whether he had his father or not. Or his father's father was not there, and go on searching out. So without father, how can one exist or one can come into being? So that if he cannot understand this simple philosophy, what kind of philosopher he is? He had his father. His father had his father. So this is fact. Even though he might not have seen his dead grandfather, but he was there. That is a fact. So if you go on searching, father's father's father, where you will come there is no father? Which..., which is that point when you can say, "Now here there is no father"? And if you actually come to that point that "Here is a person of whom there is no father," that is God.
Hayagriva: He says, "After all, is not the destiny of childishness to be overcome? Man cannot remain a child forever."
Prabhupada: No. What is his definition of childish? Whether he is childish, or he is condemning others?
Hayagriva: One who needs...
Prabhupada: Unless you can deny that you have born, you are born without father, then you are a child. You do not have conception how you are in existence without father. What is this argument? That everything must be argued, a sane man. So this is simple logic I am putting forward. Who can refute it, that you have father, your father had father, his father had father, father's father's, all? This is a disciplic succession of fathers. How can you deny the father? Therefore the ultimate father, the supreme father, He is also father but He is supreme father. That is the difference. So father conception of God is very practical, and it is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, aham bija-pradah pita. So how he can defy it if he is a sane man? Who can defy it? Is there any person to defy it?
Hayagriva: Well, he says, "Man's helplessness remains, and with it his father-longing and the gods."
Prabhupada: Hopelessness or no hopelessness...
Hayagriva: Helplessness.
Prabhupada: Ah. But suppose he is philosophizing. So how he can avoid the conception of father? That is insanity. This is very simple thing. Father's father's, his father, his father... When you go to the supreme father, that is God.
Hayagriva: Well, he felt that the idea of God arose out of man's helplessness, and the gods...
Prabhupada: That hopelessness is already there, that's a fact. That is the same logic, that we are finding difficulties in this materialistic way of life. Threefold miseries--miserable condition of this body, this mind, miseries offered by other living entities, and the natural disturbances. So how can you say there is very smooth life? That is not possible. And above these, there is old age, birth, death. So hopelessness is already there. But if one is very rascal, he is hoping against hope and planning that "We shall overcome all these difficulties by this plan, that plan, that plan." That, that is not possible. The nature is so strong, whatever plan you imagine, that will smash into pieces by simply kicking over your face. So you are hopeless but you are so shameless, inspite of becoming hopeless in every step, you are hoping against hope to make adjustment with these material things. You are so rascal and foolish. Hopelessness is always there in every step, and still, out of insanity, you are trying to adjust with another hopeless plan.
Hayagriva: He felt that the father God is an infantile wish. He says, "The whole thing is so patently infantile, so incongruous with reality, that one whose attitudes..."
Prabhupada: So what is his reality? Infantile conception of God, but what he is, except the child? Huh? He is also planning something. That is also childish. So how he becomes more than a child? He cannot give us any definite program by which everyone will be hopeful.
Hayagriva: Well, he felt psychoanalysis was the answer.
Prabhupada: That is jugglery of word. Psychoanalysis, nobody will, can understand, a common man. Psychoanalysis, if there is meaning, that there is supreme controller, that is psychoanalysis. We see everywhere controller, so it is natural. This is psychoanalysis, that there is a supreme controller. That is natural. Why defying this fact?
Hayagriva: He says, "If one attempts to assign religion its place in man's evolution, it seems not so much to be a lasting acquisition as a parallel to the neuroses which the civilized individual must pass through on his way from childhood to maturity."
Prabhupada: Evidently he is frustrated, without any knowledge of religion. He had no idea. He has seen that so many sentimental religious system, and he has concluded like that. But first of all let him understand what is religion. Religion cannot come into existence without understanding the idea of God. Religion without God cannot be religion. According to Vedic system, religion means the order given by God. But if one has no conception of God, that there is no question of religion. So Godless religion is, certainly, it is sentiment. That is not religion. So he has studied something which is not religion; therefore he has got so many doubts about religion. Real religion is that there is God, that is a fact, and whatever orders the God gives, that is religion. So he does not know what is God. How he will know what order He is giving? So for him everything is not religion.
Hayagriva: It's often been said of Freud that he tried to repress within himself religious feelings that were definitely there. He says, "I cannot..." In a letter he wrote, "I cannot rid myself of certain sceptic materialistic prejudices, and I would carry them over into the research of the occult." He considered religion the occult.
Prabhupada: Occult, what is that?
Hayagriva: Occult, something obscure. The...
Prabhupada: It is not obscure. It is, everything is obscure to the foolish person. So he is a foolish person. He does not know what is God. How he will know what is religion? Our definition of religion is "the order given by God." But if I do not know what is God, then how can I take His order? That is the defect.
Hayagriva: In the same letter he writes, "I am entirely incapable of considering the survival of the personality after death, even as a mere scientific possibility. I think therefore, it is better if I continue confining myself to psychoanalysis."
Prabhupada: What is that psy...? He is deficient in psychoanalysis also, because he is practically seeing in his daily life that a child is growing to become a boy, a boy is growing to a young man, but the body is changing and the soul is there. So if he has no sense to understand this, what kind of psychoanalysis he is? The body of the child is finished, then he accepts another body, boy. So how you can deny it? You say it has grown. I say that it is finished. Then what is the difference? Actually the child's body is not there. So you can show..., speak in a different language, but the, when the child's body is finished, there is the boy's body. When the boy's body is finished, the young man's body. So body is changing, but still my child, my son, John, I still call him John, although he has changed his body, because I know my son, the soul John, whom I call John, he is there. So the soul is there; the body is changing, we are experiencing every day. So what kind of psychoanalyst he is, that he cannot understand this simple truth? And still he says, "I cannot believe in the eternity of the soul." That how poor thoughts he is maintaining, and he is proclaiming himself a philosopher. What kind of philosopher he is?
Hayagriva: He wrote a book called Beyond the Pleasure Principle, and in it he wrote, "The goal of all life is death." For him death is the cessation...
Prabhupada: But why...
Hayagriva: ...of suffering.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That means you, why you are afraid of death? Why go to the medical man? Huh? When you are diseased you are afraid of dying. Why go to the medical man? If death is ultimate happiness, then why you are trying to avoid death? What is the psychoanalysis? (break)
Hayagriva: Now this theory... Freud's principal disciple was the famous psychologist Carl Jung. They had an argument, and Freud once fainted, and when he came to, his words were, Freud's words were, "How sweet it must be to die." And in Beyond the Pleasure Principle, he writes, "The most universal endeavor of all living substance, namely, to return to the quiescence of the inorganic world. We have all experienced how the greatest pleasure attainable by us, that of the sexual act, is associated with the momentary extinction of a highly intensified excitation. Thus the pleasure principle, the sex act itself, is preliminary to the most highly desired nirvana, the extinction of desires, and ultimately the extinction of the life functions themselves. Thus the pleasure principle seems actually to serve the death instincts."
Prabhupada: So where is the pleasure when he is dead? What is that pleasure?
Hayagriva: Well there is pleasure, and then when pleasure is cultivated, culminated...
Prabhupada: That pleasure is in the stone. So why you are...
Hayagriva: That's inorganic. He spoke of the return, the quiescence of the inorganic world.
Prabhupada: Yes. So...
Hayagriva: To become like...
Prabhupada: Why you are philosophizing? You just sui..., make suicide and become a stonelike death. That why you are philosophizing, taking so much pain? Better you suicide, commit suicide, and immediately become silent, then that's happiness. (laughter) Why you are, rascal, bothering yourself and headaching others? The best thing is that you commit suicide and become dead, and all happiness is there. As some rascal do that, that by committing suicide he will solve all problem. So this is easy process, commit suicide, and why you are writing so many books? If ultimate happiness is to become dead, do that immediately.
Hayagriva: But isn't... Materialistic pleasure, he says, serves the death instinct, but doesn't materialistic pleasure just bring out more craving for pleasure?
Prabhupada: He is making death as the ultimate pleasure. Is it not?
Hayagriva: Death as the ultimate goal of pleasure.
Prabhupada: That's all, then commit it immediately. Why you are writing so many book? Commit suicide, that everyone can do that.
Hayagriva: After, after having sex, most people simply go to sleep, and he felt that this was the, sort of the ultimate extinction.
Prabhupada: That means Freud is a most imperfect person. He is taking sex as very important thing, which the dog enjoys. As a dog's life and a hog's life, the hog has got very good facility. The monkey has got very good facility for sex life, and he is thinking this is ultimate goal, and then sleep. So that is going on. So if sex life is so big thing, the hogs, they have got good facility. The pigeons, they have got very good facility. I think every hour they have four times sex life, these pigeons. So if that is, then you become a pigeon. You pray to God that "Make me a pigeon, make me a hog." Why you are becoming philosopher? Now our philosophy is different--not to become a pig. Nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke kastan kaman arhate vid-bhujam ye. The life simply for sense gratification, and for that purpose working so hard, but that is the business of the pig. That is not the business of the human being. Human being is tapasya. Tapasya means stop sex life. That is tapasya. Tapasa brahmacaryena. So our philosophy is different from his philosophy. And actually we are suffering. The pig has got good facilities for sex. Does it mean that is ideal life, eating stool and having sex without discrimination? They have no discrimination, whether mother or sister or daughter. That is hog life. So if sex life is final pleasure, then hog is in the greatest pleasure. He has no social obligation. He has no discrimination. But our philosophy says "Don't become a hog, become a sane man." There, there, there is a difference between his philosophy and our philosophy.
Hayagriva: He says, "Everything in our life is an accident, from our very origin..."
Prabhupada: Just see how foolishness he is.
Hayagriva: "...through the meeting of the spermatozoa and ovum, an accident, which nevertheless participates in the lawfulness and fatalities of nature, lacking only the connection to our wishes and illusions."
Prabhupada: You are so foolish that you cannot avoid even accident. You are subjected to so many accidents. So what you will do by your philosophy? If accident is so prominent, (laughter) so how you will make adjustment with your philosophy? Stop talking philosophy, accept accidents and suffer, that's all.
Hayagriva: Concerning sex, Freud explored the realm of infantile sexuality and found a definite sexual nature in the earlier stages of childhood. He concluded that these sexual activities in childhood were normal phenomena, and finally concluded with his famous dictum, "In a normal sex life, no neurosis is possible."
Prabhupada: That is also his foolishness, because a child can be trained up to become a brahmacari so that he will have no inclination for sex. It depends on the child's training. The unscrupulous father and mother, they enjoy sex life before the child, and they imitate. I have seen it. I have seen it in Agra. There are two small children. In life, what do they know? The female child laid down, and the man child, just like they have seen father and mother--sex. He does not know anything, but he is imitating. So imitating, imitating, the sex life is there, it becomes prominent. Similarly, you train the children not to have any sense of sex life, he will become brahmacari. So he has not studied. He has seen some abominable family's children. So they learn these things. Whatever you teach, they imitate. So if you keep the children aloof from this sex-life society, he will remain a brahmacari. There is many instances. That is the Vedic civilization. The children are immediately, as soon as four, five years old, he is sent to the gurukula, and under the discipline he forgets sex life, practically. But still if he has little, that is natural when he is young man, so a guru sees that still tendency for sex life, he is allowed, "Go on, marry and become a grhastha." Otherwise, if he is perfectly controlled over sex life, he becomes a sannyasi, vanaprastha, the whole life. Just like my Guru Maharaja, he was never married. So he could..., that can be trained. Why he is saying the child is? Child can be trained. Even without sex he can live throughout whole life without any disturbance. That can be trained up. It is a question of education.
Hayagriva: He felt that sexual repression would be harmful, but sexual sublimation can often be beneficial. Sublimation, he says...
Prabhupada: What is that sublimation? More sex? (indistinct) sex?
Hayagriva: Sublimation is, well let me read, "The excessive excitations from individual sexual sources are discharged and utilized in other spheres, so that no small enhancement of mental capacity results from a predisposition which is dangerous as such." In other words, he didn't believe that..., in total sexual freedom as it's conceived today, but that a man would be better, instead of trying to totally deny the sex drive, to try to redirect it, oh, perhaps in artistic activity or in, in study, or in some other activity. Not to deny it.
Prabhupada: That means, in one word, to divert his attention.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is brahmacari. That is recommended in the Vedic culture, that from the very beginning of his life, divert his attention for spiritual activities, he, he will forget about sex life. That is the experience. Not only a trained-up child, even a grown-up person, if he takes Krsna consciousness seriously, he also forgets sex life. So that is possible by training, one can forget sex life. That, that is experience of Yamunacarya. He expressing, yadavadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravinde. He says that "Since my, my mind and attention has been diverted to Krsna consciousness activities, as soon as I thing of sex life, I spite on it." That is possible. It is simply question of training. And if one indulges in sex life without any restriction, the physical problem is there. He will be impotent. He will not be able to, even though he has got sex organs, he will not be able to use it. That is nature's way of punishing. There are so many impotent person. So it is a question of training. So the Vedic training is to train the small child, from the very beginning of his life, how to avoid sex life. That cannot be artificially done, but there is a process of training. By accepting that training one can remain without sex life throughout the whole life. That is possible.
Hayagriva: Well he felt it couldn't be stamped out. If it, if you try to stamp out the sex drive, it will manifest itself in neuroses, in undesirable...
Prabhupada: No, that is..., he is not... That is the defect. He does not know perfectly anything, and he is philosophizing. That is the defect. Not only in him--I find these all mental speculators, that is the defect. Everything is possible, but our Krsna consciousness movement is different from his imagination. Our philosophy is that so long one has the sex inclination, he will have to accept a material body. And as soon as he accepts a material body, he becomes implicated in so many miserable condition of material existence. But there is another life, which is not material, that is spiritual. If one is trained up to accept that spiritual life, there will be no more botheration of this material existence. That he does not know, neither he can understand. But there is such thing. That can be found in the Vedic civilization, not this meat-eating civilization. It is not possible.
Hayagriva: Concerning religion, he said, "Of the reality value of most of them, of most religions, we cannot judge. Just as they cannot be proved, neither can they be refuted."
Prabhupada: First of all, he does not know what is religion. That is the defect in him. We say religion means the order given by God. Simple thing. But he has no conception of God. How he can get orders from God? Therefore how he can understand what is religion? He has got some ideas of fictitious religion, which is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, kaitava, cheating. Cheating religion. That is not religion. Religion means, just like law. Law means the order given by the government. You cannot manufacture law at your home. That is not... Similarly, if somebody manufactures law at home and says that "I have manufactured one law. You take it," so who, who sane man will accept that law? "Sir, you keep your law in your pocket." Similarly, this so-called religious system, which is not given by God, that is just like outlaws. They are not religion. He has simply studied which is not religion. That is his defect. Real religion is the law given by God. So he has no conception of God, how he can understand what is religion? He has studied only pseudoreligion, cheating religion; therefore he is dissatisfied.
Hayagriva: He said, "The riddles of the universe only reveal themselves slowly to our inquiry. To many questions, science can as yet give no answer, but scientific work is our only way to the knowledge of external reality. Science is no illusion, but it would be an illusion to suppose that we could get anywhere else what it could not give us." In other words, religion is an illusion, but the answer lies in..., in science, that science will eventually answer all of these questions that religion attempts to answer through...
Prabhupada: No. The science or philosopher, when they are imperfect in their knowledge, they, whatever they give, that is unscientific and without any basic principle of philosophy. So the, first of all we have to learn what is the objective of knowledge, what we are searching, knowledge. The knowledge that... Vedanta. Vedanta, Veda means knowledge and anta means ultimate. Unless you come to the ultimate point of knowledge, your knowledge is imperfect, insufficient. So the ultimate knowledge is God. So if these people, they cannot define any God, they cannot believe in God, that means they have not reached to the ultimate point of knowledge. God is a fact, but we do not have any clear idea what is that God. That means our knowledge has not reached up to the point of clear understanding of God. So unless one is able to reach that point, everything, what he calls knowledge, is imperfect. God is there, that's a fact, and knowledge means to go to that point. If one has not reached to that point, his knowledge is imperfect. So how he can give us something conclusively if he has imperfect knowledge? Let him be philosopher or scientist; if he has got imperfect knowledge, what is the value of his science, scientific knowledge and that? His knowledge is imperfect. So our, our policy is we don't accept knowledge from an imperfect person. We have received knowledge from the perfect person. Krsna is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead, perfect, and anyone who follows Krsna's knowledge, he is also perfect. So our policy is to accept knowledge from the perfect person, not from the speculators. Speculators are not in perfect knowledge; therefore whatever they say, they are all imperfect. Maybe to some extents it is perfect, but it is not perfect knowledge.
Hayagriva: He writes, "As it is a delicate task to decide what God has Himself ordained and what derives rather from the authority of an all-powerful parliament or a supreme judicial decision, it would be an indubitable advantage to leave God out of the question altogether and to admit honestly the purely human origin of all cultural laws and instructions." In other words, man is the law-giver...
Prabhupada: That, that means he has no clear conception of God, because God has to take power from some parliament. God does not take power from anyone. He is God. That is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that janmady asya yatah anvayad itaratah ca arthesu abhijnah svarat, that the Supreme, God, or Supreme Truth, Brahman, He knows everything. He knows everything in details. And wherefrom? Abhijnah. He is, abhijnah means completely in awareness. Then the question may be raised that "How He got this complete knowledge? From whom He received?" The answer is immediate, svarat. Svarat means independent. That is God. If one has to take knowledge from Mr. Freud, then he is not God. Anyone, if you come to that person that He is independent, parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate svabhaviki, naturally He is all-perfect. He hasn't got to become perfect by some process or from some authority. That is God. He is all-perfect automatically. That is God. So anyone who is trying to be perfect, he is not God. One who is... That, that, that is in the history, we find in the history of life of Krsna. When He was three-months-old child He, He could kill big giant like Putana. That is automatic. Either He is child or He is a young man or He is old man, the godly power is there. The nowadays these so-called yogis, they are becoming God by meditation, but the three-months-old child in the lap of His mother, how He became God? The God is God always. He hasn't got to learn it from anyone. That is His svarat, independent. So these people have no conception of God; therefore they are simply speculating and misleading persons. God is not the subject matter of speculation. We, if we want to know God, then we must know it from God Himself or a person who knows Him. That is the direction in the Bhagavad-gita:
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti tad jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
Tattva-darsinah, one who has learned about God as fact, as you see eye to eye and you believe it. Similarly, one who has seen God eye to eye, you have to let..., get lessons of God from him. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is talking with God. So if you have to understand God, then understand how Arjuna has taken his instruction from God and what he's understood. So Arjuna says, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan, purusam sasvatam adyam. So we have to take lesson from Arjuna not from Mr. Freud, who has no knowledge of God. That is the way.
Hayagriva: Concerning early religious training, he writes, "So long as a man's early years are influenced by the religious thought inhibition, and by the lore one derived from it, as well as by the sexual one, we cannot really say what he," that is man, "is actually like." So he feels that early religious education actually warps a man's development, that you can't say what man can truly be like if you educate him to believe in a transcendental being.
Prabhupada: That's a fact. If a child is given lesson that there is a supreme being controlling the whole cosmic situation, what is the wrong there? He should learn it.
Hayagriva: But Freud felt that this inhibited man's natural development, that you can't know what man is naturally like as long as you inculcate him with these religious ideas.
Prabhupada: Then why do you send your son to a school for education?
Hayagriva: Well he felt that...
Prabhupada: Naturally...
Hayagriva: Some education, there has to be education.
Prabhupada: That's all. This is also the most important education.
Hayagriva: So therefore, they are following this line of thought now in the schools, because they've cut out religious education...
Prabhupada: That, that this is the important education in human life--to learn about God. That is the only business, because in other lives, the animal life, cat's and dog's life, they cannot understand. But in the human form of life there is possibility; therefore that is the first education. The animals, they cannot think of God, but in the human society, why there are religions? Not in the animal society. To understand God, that is the civilized form of human civilization.
Hayagriva: He agrees with Marx in his belief that religion is a form of narcotic. He says, "The believer...," that is in God...
Prabhupada: Well first of all, these men do not know what is religion. That is the defeat. That is their defect, either Marx or Freud of so many so-called philosophers, they do not know what is religion. They have to learn what is religion. Without knowing what is religion, why they are talking of religion and God? They have no knowledge about.
Hayagriva: He says, "The believer will not let his faith be taken from him, neither by argument nor by prohibitions, and even if it did succeed with some, it would be a cruel thing to do."
Prabhupada: No. Anything, artificial teaching, that is cruelty. So that is being done by Mr. Freud also. Artificially he is stressing on sex and death and so on, so on, but that is not life. Real life is that to understand the simple truth. Just like..., who was protesting against father conception? That Mr. John, so and so?
Hari-sauri: Freud.
Hayagriva: Freud.
Prabhupada: Father. So how he can avoid this father conception? If you mislead people that there is no father conception, that is not education; that is misleading. Father is there, everyone knows this simple philosophy. And if he is misleading them, then that is not philosopher, that is cruelty. A man is naturally believing that there is father and there is father's father, and he is diverting his attention from this natural belief. So this is cruelty. He is committing cruelty to human understanding, simple understanding.
Hayagriva: He says, "I disagree with you when you go on to argue that man cannot in general do without the consolation of the religious illusion, that without it he would not endure the troubles of life, the cruelty of reality."
Prabhupada: Man cannot do without education. Without education a man remains an animal. Therefore in the human society there is a school, college, an institution, teacher--not in the animal society. So the principle is, the man is meant for being learned or being educated. That you cannot deny, that man life should not be like cats and dogs, simply eating, sleeping, mating, and dying. That is not man's life. Man's life is to become advanced in knowledge and education. And as I have already described, the ultimate knowledge: to understand God. If he is so-called educated, without any understanding of God, then his education is imperfect. You can deny the existence of God, but the God conception is there in the human society. Some may accept it, some may not accept it--that is another thing--but the conception of God, the whole civilized world, they have got some type of religion. Either you become Christian or Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim, religion means there is some cultivation of knowledge to understand God. And to understand God is the ultimate knowledge. That is called Vedanta. Veda means knowledge, and the ultimate knowledge: Vedanta. So ultimate knowledge, it, what is that? That is the beginning of Vedanta education. What is that ultimate knowledge? Athato brahma-jijnasa. The Vedanta begins with this word, "Now this human form of life is to acquire the ultimate knowledge." Athato brahma. Brahma means the ultimate. So, the absolute. Now it is the time to understand. So far understanding of sex, the dog also knows. You don't require to give him any education. So nobody is given education... Now of course they have adopted, but there is a Bengali proverb, "How to cry and how to enjoy sex, it doesn't require any education." When you are aggrieved, you cry automatically. When there is a sex impulse, you enjoy it automatically. It doesn't require any Mr. Freud. Without the help of any educator, everyone knows--cats, dogs, animals, human being--everyone knows how to enjoy sex life. It doesn't require any education.
So the Vedanta says that this kind of education is there in the animal kingdom also, sex philosophy. There is no question of philosophy, it is already there; anyone can enjoy it. Now, at this time, atha ato brahma-jijnasa, now this human life is to inquire about the Absolute Truth, Brahman, because that is the ultimate knowledge. This ultimate knowledge can be acquired by the human being, not by the cats and dog. So if a philosopher, without any knowledge of God, doubtful knowledge of God, so he is imperfect, he is not even human being. He is cats and dogs. (break) God means supreme controller. So everything we see is controlled. The government is controller, but the supreme controller there must be. That's a fact. Now, if you want to know it clearly, then be educated. That is Vedanta. That is very reasonably said, that "What is that Brahman, God?" Immediately answer is, janmady asya yatah. God means, the Absolute Truth means, Brahman means from whom everything has emanated. We see everything is emanating. Just like we see the trees are emanating from the earth, and by eating the fruits, flowers, grains, the animal, human being, they are also emanating. So ultimate cause is this earth. We are emanating. We can say that "I am emanating from my mother." So the mother does not eat, then how he, his, her body can continue and how she can give another body within the womb? So ultimately we can see that the earth or the water is the source of emanation of everything. Then we can inquire wherefrom the water comes and wherefrom the earth comes, wherefrom the air comes, wherefrom the fire comes. This is philosophy. Then ultimately when we come, come to the supreme point of emanation, janmady asya yatah: "Here is the person, here is the source of everything." So that we must know. Simply in the middle struggling for understanding without any perfect knowledge, what is the value of this philosophy and knowledge? There is no value. You must come to the ultimate goal, the ultimate source of everything. "By accident," "perhaps," that, that is not knowledge. Definite knowledge. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita you'll learn, Krsna says,
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
Why one should become a devotee of Krsna? When he understands perfectly that "Here is the ultimate source." Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate.
So when you have got this knowledge, that this knowledge, jnana, that how this knowledge comes? By researching for many, many life. Then, bahunam janmanam ante, in this way researching, researching, researching, after many, many births, when he actually becomes in full awareness that "Here is the source," then He says, vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah: "Oh, here is..., Vasudeva is everything." Sa mahatma su-durlabhah. Then he begins his bhajana. Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah bhajanty ananya-manaso. That is life. Simply speculation, coming to know definite knowledge, "perhaps," "maybe," and this and that--what is the value of this knowledge? That is childish. That is childish. He is, he is saying others, for giving him God, that is childish, but he is himself a child. He cannot give us any definite knowledge. "By chance," "by accident," "perhaps." What is the value of that knowledge?
Hayagriva: Freud's..., this is Freud's final conclusion on this point: "True, without religion man will then find himself in a difficult situation. He will have to confess his utter helplessness and his insignificant part in the working of the universe. He will have to confess that he is no longer the center of creation, no longer the object of the tender care of a benevolent providence. He will be in the same position as the child who has left the home where he was so warm and comfortable. But, after all, is it not the destiny of childishness to be overcome? Man cannot remain a child forever. He must venture at last into the hostile world. This may be called education to reality. Need I tell you that it is the sole aim of my book to draw attention to the necessity for this advance?"
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: The advance to reality.
Prabhupada: That reality is good advice. But unfortunately, who is taking advantage of his advice? Because here we are presenting Bhagavad-gita, the real point of religion, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. But these philosophers have misled the world so much that now it is very difficult to convince them that here is God speaking and here is religion. That service he has done. As they were innocent to accept the words of God, now they have become overintelligent. They think sex is God, and that is going on. So to counteract this mentality it will take some time, but anyone who takes, accept the Bhagavad-gita, the words of God, and the ways and means of life as defined by God, if anyone takes, then he will be happy. That's a fact.
Hayagriva: Christ said, "Unless he becomes a little child, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God."
Prabhupada: Child.
Hayagriva: Unless you become like a little child, you will not enter into the kingdom.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, yes.
Hayagriva: And Freud says you must grow up.
Prabhupada: He is a, he is a crazy fellow. That's all. And all these rascal philosophers, they are more or less crazy. One who does not know what is God, what is the value of his knowledge? But our criterion of knowledge is one who has known God. As long as you do not come to that point, your knowledge is useless. Simply misleading. And that is not knowledge. It is a fact that there is some supreme controller. Now if one give education how that supreme controller is working, how He is Supreme, that is real education. And you cannot understand how the Supreme is working, you simply deny the Supreme, that is not knowledge. Supreme is there because you are controlled. How can you avoid the control? How you can say there is no supreme controller? You make a plan and it is frustrated. There is supreme controller. You are making arrangement to live here very happily; next day you die. So you are under controller. How can you deny it? So there is supreme controller. Now, knowledge means, "Who is that supreme controller? How He is controlling?" Not that deny it, "Grapes are sour." Jumping, jumping, jumping, jumping, when he could not reach the grapes, he said, "Oh, there is no need of them. It is sour." Their position is like that. They cannot understand... God is there, that's a fact--supreme controller. But they cannot explain, neither they can understand. There is jackal struggle. Jackal jumping, jumping; when he cannot get the, reach the grapes, he says, " Why (indistinct)? It is sour." Their conclusion is like that. They cannot understand what is God, how He is acting, what is religion, and they are defying, "There is no need of religion, there is no need of God." Jackal struggling, that's all. Jackal struggling is no philosophy. (end)
Philosophy Discussions JUNG.HAY
Carl Gustav Jung
Hayagriva: This is Carl Jung, Carl Gustav Jung. One interesting point is that the inscription above the door of Jung's house read, in Latin, "Summoned or not summoned, God will be there."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: And in his book, his autobiography, Memories, Dreams, Reflections, we find most of his thoughts about the, about theology and psychoanalysis. In that book he writes, "I find that all my thoughts circle around God like the planets around the sun and are as irresistibly attracted by Him. I would feel it to be the grossest sin if I were to oppose any resistance to this force." He sees all creatures as parts of God. He says, "Man cannot compare himself with any other creature. He is not a monkey, not a cow, not a tree. I am a man. But what is it to be that? Like every other being, I am a splinter of the infinite Deity."
Prabhupada: Part and parcel. That is our theory. We are part and parcel of God. Like fire and the sparks.
Hayagriva: He writes, "It was obedience which brought me grace. One must be utterly abandoned to God. Nothing matters but fulfilling His will. Otherwise all is folly and meaninglessness."
Prabhupada: Very good. Surrender. Sarva-dharman parityajya. That is real life. Saranagati, to surrender to God, to accept things which is favorable to God, to reject things which are unfavorable to God, always maintaining conviction that "God will give me all protection," and remain humble and meek, and think oneself as one of the members of God's family--that is spiritual communism. As the Communist they think a member of a certain community, similarly a man's duty is to think always as member of God's family. The same idea I was speaking, that God is the supreme father, material nature is the mother, and anything, any living entity coming out of material nature, they are all sons of God. So practically we see that all living entities coming out, either from land or from water or from the air--everywhere there is living entity--so the material nature is the mother. There is no doubt about it. And we have got experience that mother cannot produce child without connection with the father. So this is absurd to think that without father a child can be born. That is foolishness. Father must be there, and that supreme father is God. This conception of a spiritual family is Krsna consciousness, God consciousness.
Hayagriva: Concerning God's personality, he writes, "According to the Bible, God has a personality and is the ego of the universe, just as I myself am the ego of my psyche and physical being." But here...
Prabhupada: Yes, God... So that is our view, that consciousness, just like I am conscious, but I am conscious about my body. I am not conscious of your body. This is individual consciousness. You are conscious of your body, but you are not conscious of my body. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, ksetra-ksetrajna, that individual soul is conscious of his own body, each and every individual soul, but there is another consciousness, that is superconsciousness. That is God. God is in everyone's heart, ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata. I am also within the body, but He is not like that individual soul, limited within that body. He is residing in everyone's body, so that He is superconscious, Supersoul, Paramatma.
Hayagriva: Continuing on this, God's personality, these are his recollections of his spiritual encounters. He says, "But here I encountered a formidable obstacle. Personality, after all, surely signifies character. Now character is one thing and not another, that is to say, it involves certain specific attributes. But if God is everything, how could He still possess a distinguishable character? On the other hand, if He does have a character He can only be the ego of a subjective, limited world. Moreover, what kind of character or what kind of personality does He have? Everything depends on that, for unless one knows the answer, one cannot establish a relationship to Him."
Prabhupada: His character is transcendental character, not like the material character. Aprakrta. It is said, just like bhakta-vatsala, He is very kind to His devotee. This kindness is, is one of His characteristic. Similarly, He has got unlimited qualities, and according to that transcendental quality He is sometimes described, but all those qualities are permanent. Whatever qualities and character we have got, they are minute manifestation of God's character, because we have got character also. That is only a minute manifestation of God's character. He is the origin of all character. That is described in the sastras. He has got also mind, He has got also feelings, He has got also sensation, He has got senses, sense perception, sense gratification. Everything is there. That is unlimitedly, and we, being part and parcel of God, we possess in minute quantities all the God's quality. Actually our characteristics, qualities are simply atomic manifestation of God's quality. The original qualities are in God.
Hayagriva: Jung complained that at least the philosophies and theologies of the West...
Prabhupada: And He, He is person also.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: He is person. That is the Vedic description. He is person exactly like us, but His personality is unlimited. The same example I was giving, that I am a person so far I am concerned with this particular body, but He is a person living in every body, Super Person. And in the Bhagavad-gita it is also said that that personality, either of God or of the individual soul, eternally existing. In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna says that in the past we are existing, at present we are existing, and in the future we shall continue to exist. So past, present, future. That means all the time, eternally, both of them are person. One person is unlimited, and the other person is limited. Finite and infinite. So God is person, but the unlimited qualities, unlimited characteristics, unlimited power, unlimited strength, unlimited influence, unlimited knowledge. That is God. And we are also the same--person--with little power, little influence, little knowledge, everything limited. That is the difference between two personalities. One is limited, another is unlimited, but the qualities are the same.
Hayagriva: Jung then found that the philosophies and theologies, at least of the West, could not give him a clear picture of God's personality. He concluded, "What is wrong with these philosophers? I wondered. Evidently they know of God only by hearsay."
Prabhupada: Yes. That I was complaining, that none of these rascals have any clear idea of God. They are simply speculating. Therefore they cannot speak anything about religion or God, because they have no clear conception. But so far we are concerned, we have got clear conception of God: "Here is God, Krsna." And we want to give that conception to the world. That is Krsna consciousness movement. Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Person, Supreme God, by everyone, all authorities, past, present, future must be. So why they do not accept this personal God? If they have got any reason, if they have got any logic, any philosophy, here is Krsna, perfect God. So He, according to Vedic scripture, He is complete, cent percent God. Other incarnation of God, they are not cent percent. It has been analyzed in our Nectar of Devotion. Up to Narayana, ninety-four percent God, ah, ninety-six percent God. Lord Siva, eighty-four percent God, Lord Brahma, er, eighty...
Hari-sauri: Seventy-eight?
Prabhupada: Seventy-eight percent. That is also very minute quantity of the characteristics and qualities of God. But Krsna is full-fledged, cent percent God. That Rupa Goswami has analyzed in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. We have given the translation in Nectar of Devotion. So God is person. Simply if we study man's character, then we can study also God, the same character. Loving affairs, as we also want to enjoy with friends, with girls, with parents, with superiors, with servants, as we take pleasure in these relationship, similarly, God also takes pleasure in these similar relationship. He has got five relationship primarily, and seven relationship secondarily. So twelve kinds of relationship, and therefore He is described, akhila-rasamrta-sindhu, reservoir of all pleasure. That is His completeness. So the philosophers, they should try to understand, and very, I mean, analytically, what is God. They do not know God, and they speak of God, imaginary. That is not perfect knowledge. One must study what is God with perfect knowledge. That is advancement of knowledge. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita:
mayy asakta-manah partha
yogam yunjan mad-asrayah
asamsayam samagram mam
yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu
Krsna addressed Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, simply by concentrating your attachment for Me," mayy asakta, "and practicing the bhakti-yoga under My light," mayy asakta-manah yogam... Mad-asrayah. You can learn about God by keeping yourself always under the protection of God, or under the protection of the representative of God. Then, asamsayam, without any doubt, samagram, perfectly, you can understand God. Otherwise there is no possibility. Mayy asakta-manah partha yogam yunjan mad-asrayah, asamsayam. Then there will be no doubt whether God is there or not, what is my relationship with God, what is my duty, and so on. Everything you will know. That is perfect life, Krsna conscious life.
Hayagriva: He writes, "The theologians are different from the philosophers in this respect at any rate. At least they are sure that God exists, even though they make contradictory statements about Him. God's existence does not depend on our proofs. I understood that God was, for me at least, one of the most certain and immediate of experiences."
Prabhupada: Yes, that is transcendental conviction, and it is very easy to understand that God is there. I do not know God, that is another thing. I will have to learn it. But God is there. There is no doubt about it. Any sane man can understand. You cannot say there is no God, because you are under control. So who is that controller? The supreme controller is God. This is sane man's conclusion. Now, I do not know who is God then, but there is God, that's a fact. So he is right when he says I believe or not believe, there is God. Now, it will depend on my personal endeavor to know God. Go on.
Hayagriva: He writes, "In my darkness I could have wished for nothing better than a real live guru"--he uses the word guru--"someone possessing superior knowledge and ability who would have disentangled for me the involuntary creations of my imagination."
Prabhupada: Yes. Guru. Guru, that is required: tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet. That is Vedic process. To have, to possess perfect knowledge one must have guru, and guru means one has..., one is actually representative of God, not theoretically, but one who has practically seen and experienced God. We have to approach such guru then by service and by surrender, and by sincere inquiries we shall be able to understand what is God. That is required. The speculation is no use. Athapi te deva padambuja-dvaya-prasada-lesanugrhita eva hi, janati tattvam. This is the statement of Vedic literature. "My Lord, one who has received a little mercy and favor of Your Lordship, he can understand. Others may speculate for millions and millions of years, avacintya-tatt(ve). Still they will remain in the fathom of inconceivable energy. There is no possibility." This is not the process. It clearly described in the Bhagavata, bhaktya mam abhijanati, simply through the process of bhakti. Bhakti means sravanam kirtanam visnoh, hearing, chanting about Visnu, always remembering Him. Satatam kirtayanto mam. That is the process. Always glorify the Lord, and devotee's only business is to glorify. That is devotee. Naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaranyas tvad-virya-gayana-mahamrta-magna-cittah. A devotee's consciousness is always drowned in the ocean of the pastimes of the Supreme Lord, unlimited activities, and devotees always think of that activities. Tvad-virya-gayana-mahamrta, that is, means that drowned in the ocean of the activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So that is transcendental bliss, and one should learn how to be always merged in the ocean of God consciousness. That training is given by the spiritual master; therefore one must have, acaryavan puruso veda. One who is under the direction of acarya, he knows everything about God. (break)
Hayagriva: He gave the following criticism of Sigmund Freud. He says, "Sexuality evidently meant more to Freud than to other people. For him it was something to be religiously observed."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "One thing was clear. Freud, who had always made much of his irreligiosity, had now constructed a dogma, or rather in the place of God, whom he had lost, he had substituted another compelling image, that of sexuality."
Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact. He has taken sexuality as God. But our position is that we must accept a leader. That is our natural tendency. So he gave up the leadership of God and took the leadership of sex. That is his position. Leadership we must have. That is..., this question also I asked to Professor Kotovsky, that "Where is the difference between your philosophy and our philosophy? You accept leader, Lenin. We accept leader, Krsna. So where is the difference in the process?" So this is the nature of human being, to accept a leader. But this man, unfortunately, he lost the leadership of God and he took leadership of sex. That is his position.
Hayagriva: Jung concluded, concerning Freud, he said, "Freud never asked himself why he was compelled to talk continually of sex, why this idea had taken such possession of him. He remained unaware that his monotony of interpretation expressed a flight from himself, or from that other side of him which might perhaps be called mystical. So long as he refused to acknowledge that side," that is the mystical side, "he could never be reconciled with himself."
Prabhupada: (aside:) You are feeling sleepy. So then sleep. Feeling disturbed. (break)
Hayagriva: He said that Freud's absorption with sexuality expressed a flight from himself, a fleeing from himself, from the side of himself which might be called mystical. As long as he refused to acknowledge that side, that is the mystical side, he could never be reconciled with himself, could never be at one with himself. So...
Prabhupada: Yes. He was under the leadership of sexuality. That's a fact. Everyone is under the leadership. Just like sometimes we say, "The material scientists say like this, they say like this." He accepts the leadership. So we have to accept the leadership, but if we accept the leadership of Krsna, then our life is perfect. Other leadership is maya, maya's leadership. But we have to accept leadership. There is no doubt of it. So he accepted the leadership of sex, but he did not admit it, but going on speaking on sex. And those who have taken the leadership of God, they will speak only of God, nothing else. Jivera svarupa haya nitya krsna dasa, that is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy, that we are eternal servant of God. So as soon as we give up the service of Lord, then we have to accept the service of maya. So all these different atheists, scientists, they are all servants of maya instead of becoming servant of God. He is servant, but he is servant of maya. That is the difference between devotee and the materialistic person.
Hayagriva: He saw that the soul was always longing for light, the urge to rise out of the primal darkness, and he says, "That is the pent-up feeling that can be detected in the eyes of primitives," that is primitive people, "and also in the eyes of animals. There is a sadness in animals' eyes, and we never know whether that sadness is bound up with the soul of the animal or is a poignant message which speaks to us out of that existence."
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is seeking, that constitutionally he is servant. He is seeking serve master. That is natural potency. So in the animal kingdom, animal life, just like a small cat... What is called? Child of cat and dog, what is called? Cat? A baby chi..., a baby dog, what is called, puppy?
Devotee: Puppy.
Prabhupada: The puppy is, you will sometimes find, they try to take shelter of some boy, of some man. Natural tendency. "Give me shelter. Keep me as your pet." They are happy. That means by nature they are wanting some shelter. A child is also wanting some shelter. So that is our constitutional position. So in the human form of life, when consciousness is developed, that tendency to have a leader, to take shelter, that is Krsna. Krsna is giving direction that "You want shelter, you want guidance, so you take My guidance," sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam, "then you will be perfect." That is the ultimate instruction of Bhagavad-gita.
Hayagriva: In 1938 Jung was invited by the British government to take part in celebrations connected with the twenty-fifth anniversary of the University of Calcutta. He writes, "By that time I had read a great deal."
Prabhupada: Twenty-fifth anniversary?
Hayagriva: Hm?
Prabhupada: Twenty-fifth.
Hayagriva: Anniversary, 1938.
Prabhupada: So Calcutta University was started long ago.
Hari-sauri: 1913.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee: 1913.
Hayagriva: The University of Calcutta.
Prabhupada: No. Calcutta University was started long ago.
Hayagriva: Before that?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: Must have been misinformation.
Hayagriva: Hm. Well it could have been mistyped or it could have been mis...
Prabhupada: Yes. Maybe "eighteen..."
Hayagriva: Ah-ha.
Prabhupada: 1813 maybe.
Hayagriva: 1938. I don't, I'll, I'll have to check these dates.
Prabhupada: Yes. Calcutta University was started long ago.
Hayagriva: He writes, "By that time I had read a great deal about..."
Prabhupada: About 1813. 1813.
Hayagriva: 1813. So maybe it's the..., maybe it was the anniversary that's wrong. Probably not the year, because he was most famous in '38. He wasn't..., before that he wasn't.
Prabhupada: Hm. Anniversary maybe. Anniversary is going on.
Hayagriva: It might have been the 50th anniversary also. He writes, "By that time I had read a great deal about Indian philosophy and religious history and was deeply convinced of the value of Oriental wisdom." On this visit Jung had an opportunity to talk with S. Subrahmania Ayer, the guru of the Maharaja of Mysore, who hosted Jung. Jung says that he studiously avoided the so-called holy men. He says, "I did so because I had to make do with my own truth, not to accept from others what I could not attain on my own. I would have felt it as a theft had I attempted to learn from the holy men and to accept their truth for myself. Neither in Europe can I make any borrowings from the East, but I must shape my life out of myself, out of what my inner being tells me or what nature brings to me."
Prabhupada: He did not like to accept any guru.
Hayagriva: Self-reliance.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: This seems to be a self-reliance.
Prabhupada: Then how he accepts Indian pleasure(?)?
Hayagriva: Well on the one hand at least he didn't accept...
Prabhupada: He must...
Hayagriva: On the one hand he says he wanted a guru.
Prabhupada: Huh.
Hayagriva: Previously.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: But here, after going to Calcutta, perhaps it was the, the so-called gurus that he met that discouraged...
Prabhupada: The so-called gurus are there, many. That is no doubt. So he might have seen some bogus guru, he did not like. But the principle of accepting guru cannot be avoided. That is not possible.
Hayagriva: That contradicts the previous statement.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Concerning consciousness after death, Jung feels that after death the individual must pick up the level of consciousness which he left.
Prabhupada: He continues.
Hayagriva: The level of consciousness.
Prabhupada: Continues.
Hayagriva: Continues.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore, according to that consciousness he has to accept a body. That is trasmigration of the soul. That ordinary person, they can only see the body, but along with the body there is mind and there is intelligence, there is ego. One cannot see what is mind, what is intelligence. So there is no reason that when the body is finished why the mind and the intelligence should be finished. But he cannot see the mind, cannot intell..., see the intelligence. He said everything is finished. Why everything should be finished? The body is finished, but the mind is not finished. So the soul is carried by mind, intelligence. That is subtle body. And it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, na hanyate hanyamane sarire. He is not finished, he is there. He is being carried by mind and intelligence. But these foolish person they cannot see. But even in lifetime they cannot see what is mind. They cannot see what is intelligence.
Hayagriva: He says, "One's spiritual education must continue at the point he left off. If there were to be a conscious existence after death, it would, so it seems to me, have to continue on the level of consciousness attained by humanity, which in any age has an upper thought-variable limit."
Prabhupada: That is clearly explained in the Bhagavad-gita, that the past consciousness, that passion, the consciousness is continuing. So even the body is destroyed, the consciousness continuing. So due to the consciousness he gets another body, and again, in that body, the future, past consciousness works. So, if, if, if in the past life he was a devotee, again he becomes devotee, and from the point where he died, the material body became destroyed, again, as soon as he gets a body, the same consciousness begins to work. Therefore we find somebody quickly accepts Krsna consciousness and sometime it takes delay. So it is continued, past. In every verse we see that, just like in the Bhagavad-gita, bahunam janmanam ante. Bahunam janmanam ante means the consciousness is being continued but the body is changing. Therefore it is said, bahunam janmanam ante. Janma means to accept another gross body, but the consciousness is continuing. Just as Bharata Maharaja, he changed so many bodies but the consciousness continued. He remained in full understanding of Krsna consciousness. So this is clear, but on account of, I mean to say, dull brain they cannot understand. Here is the reason, that you do not see mind. You have not seen. So Mr. John you see daily, but we don't see Mr. John's intelligence. We can perceive that this man is intelligent, but you have not seen what is intelligent. When he talks, you understand, you perceive, that he has got intelligence. So this gross body, when it is no more talking, so why that intelligence will be finished? This is common sense. When a man talks we say he is intelligent man, but we do not see what is intelligent. So the talking instrument is this body. So this body is finished, gross body is finished, does it mean that his consciousness, intelligence finished? No. That continues. Just like you dream. This body is not working--this is practical--but his consciousness is working, his mind is working. So similarly, na hanyate hanyamane sarire. After the destruction of this gross body, the mind, intelligence continues, and because to work the mind and intelligence he requires a body, so he develops body. That is transmigration of the soul. It is very clear to understand.
Hayagriva: Well he felt that the level of consciousness could not supersede whatever knowledge is available on this planet. I guess that's clear.
Prabhupada: No, it can supersede, provided you get knowledge from authority. Just like somebody is sitting here, he has not seen India. But somebody who has full knowledge of India or seen or gone there, he can describe, and he can understand that there is place, India, the place is like this, like that. So similarly, from authority, just like Krsna says, there is another nature: paras tasmat tu bhavah anyah avyaktah avyaktat sanatanah. That nature is eternal. Here, this nature as we find, it is not eternal. It is temporary. It takes birth, it is maintained for sometimes, it changes, it becomes old, and again destroyed, finished. And therefore in this material there is dissolution, but there is another world, which has no dissolution. That information we get from authority, Krsna. Sanatanah. Everything finished here, that is not finished. So we have to receive this knowledge from authority, not necessarily by your personal experience. Paroksa, aparoksa this is called. There are different stages of knowledge. Pratyaksa, paroksa, aparoksa, adhoksaja, aprakrta. So that requires advancement of knowledge. So, not that all knowledge we can have by direct perception. That is not possible.
Hayagriva: He says, "This is probably why earthly life is of such great significance and why it is that what a human being brings over at the time of his death is so important. Only here in life on earth can the general level of consciousness be raised. That seems to be man's metaphysical task." So since consciousness survives death it must therefore be elevated while man is on earth.
Prabhupada: Yes. That consciousness should be developed automatically. Paurva-dehikam in the Bhagavad-gita it is said. What is that verse? In the Sixth Chapter, paurva-dehikam.
Hari-sauri: "The unsuccessful yogi, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people or into a family of rich aristocracy."
Prabhupada: Hm. Then?
Hari-sauri:
atha va yoginam eva
kule bhavati dhimatam
etaddhi durlabhataram
loke janma yad idrsam
"Or he takes his birth in a family of transcendentalists who are surely great in wisdom. Verily, such a birth is rare in this world."
Prabhupada: Hm.
Hari-sauri:
tatra tam buddhi-samyogam
labhate paurva-dehikam
Prabhupada: Dehikam.
Hari-sauri:
yatate ca tato bhuyah
samsiddhau kuru-nandana
"On taking such a birth, he again revives the divine consciousness of his previous life, and he tries to make further progress in order to achieve complete success, O son of Kuru."
Prabhupada: That is... When the, the incompleteness of his yoga practice, if he dies prematurely, or he could not finish and die, so the consciousness goes with him. So, in the next life again he begins from that point, paurva-dehikam. What is the exact word? Tatra? Buddhi...?
Hari-sauri: Buddhi-samyogam, revival.
Prabhupada: Ah, buddhi-samyogam.
Hari-sauri: Revival of such consciousness.
Prabhupada: The intelligence becomes revived, buddhi-samyogam. Then?
Hari-sauri: Labhate paurva-dehikam.
Prabhupada: Ah, labhate paurva-dehikam. That is everything, spiritual and material. Materially also we find sometime when one person is very extraordinary individual. In the class some student picks up very quickly, some student cannot understand. So this is continuation. One is intelligent means he has got some previous revival of his consciousness. So in this way it is going on. That is the proof, immortality of the soul. Otherwise why? Paurva-dehikam, previous birth. This is the proof.
Hayagriva: There's a lot of sort of interesting points here.
Prabhupada: Hm. (break)
Hayagriva: He points out that there's a paradox surrounding death. "On the one hand, from the point of view of the ego," or what we call the false ego, "death is a horrible catastrophe, a fearful piece of brutality. On the other hand, from the point of view of the psyche, the soul, death is a joyful event, in the life of eternity it is a wedding."
Prabhupada: Yes. In all cases it is eternal, but it is, death is horrible for the person who is going to accept a lower grade of life, and it is pleasure for the devotee, that he is going back to home, back to God. That is the difference.
Hayagriva: So it's not always a joyful event for the soul.
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: Oh.
Prabhupada: How it can be? If he is, if he is not developed...
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: ...to spiritual consciousness, Krsna consciousness, it is very horrible for him. But in this life he became very proud, "I don't care for God, I am independent," and so on, so on, so on, talking like a crazy fellow. But after death he has to accept a body as dictated by nature: "My dear sir, you have worked like a dog, you become a dog. You liked this surfing in the sea, now you become a fish." That will be given by the superior order. Karmana daiva-netrena. You have worked in a certain way. Now, by superior, super, superior dictation you will accept a type of body naturally. If you have infected some disease, when you are attacked by the disease you cannot protest because you have got already infected. Similarly, we are creating our next body, karanam guna-sango 'sya. We are keeping ourself in touch with a certain type of modes of material nature. That means we are creating our next body. How we..., can you stop it? That is nature's way. The same, if you have infected some disease you must get that disease. Similarly, there are three modes of material nature, tamo-guna, rajo-guna, sattva-guna, and transcendental. As you have kept your association in this life you get the similar body, paurva-dehikam. So even if you fail to achieve the highest goal in Krsna consciousness, still, because you have kept yourself in the association of Krsna consciousness, so you are going to get the chance to take birth sucinam srimatam gehe, either in the family of pure, purity, brahmana, or in the aristocratic family. In both the families, you get the chance of reviving your spiritual consciousness. But we forget that, or we do not get superior guidance, then we again fall. But there is chance. One who is born in rich family, one who is born in high-grade family, he has got the chance, and (indistinct) to take lessons from Bhagavad-gita that "I have become..., I am born in rich family or in a brahmana family, so I am well situated. Now I must take where I left my, developed my spiritual consciousness." So if he tries, he gets the chance. So human form in general is a chance for making progress in Krsna consciousness, especially when one is born in aristocratic family or a brahmana family or a Vaisnava family.
Hayagriva: Despite so many interesting points, Jung appears to have a somewhat limited understanding of Indian philosophy. He did not appear to understand that samsara, although it appears to be endless, can be ended if one surrenders to Krsna, that there is mukti, that samsara can be overcome by surrendering unto Mukunda. He writes, "The succession of birth and death is viewed as an endless continuity, as an eternal wheel rolling on forever without a goal. Man lives and attains knowledge and dies and begins again from the beginning." He says, "Only with the Buddha does the idea of a goal emerge, namely the overcoming of earthly existence."
Prabhupada: Hm. So overcoming the earthly existence means you enter in the spiritual world, because spirit soul is eternal. So from this atmosphere to another. That is explained clearly in the Bhagavad-gita, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya. After giving up this present body, this is material, so those who continue to, in the cycle of birth and death, they get another material body, but those who are Krsna conscious, they do not get another material body, but he goes to Krsna. That is the difference.
Hayagriva: Krsna says that over and over in Bhagavad-gita. He says it many times.
Prabhupada: Yes, that, that is for the dvisatah kruran, those who are envious of Krsna. For them, continuous. And those who are not envious, accepts Krsna's instruction, surrenders unto Him and understands Krsna, for them this is the last birth, material birth. After this he goes back to home, back to Godhead.
Hayagriva: Concerning the question whether karma is personal...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...he writes, "The crucial question is whether a man's karma is personal or not. If it is, then the pre-ordained destiny with which a man enters life represents an achievement of previous lives, and a personal continuity therefore exists. If, however, this is not so, and an impersonal karma is seized upon in the act of birth, then that karma is incarnated again without there being any personal continuity."
Prabhupada: What is that impersonal karma? Karma is always personal.
Hayagriva: Karma is always personal.
Prabhupada: Personal.
Hayagriva: He points out that Buddha was twice asked by His disciples whether man's karma is personal or not. Each time he fended off the question and did not go into the matter. To know this, he said, would not contribute to liberating oneself.
Prabhupada: Because he did not, he did not teach about the soul. Therefore, how he could touch that personal?
Hayagriva: He refused to respond to those questions.
Prabhupada: Yes, because he did not accept the soul. That as soon as he denied the personal aspect of the soul, how there can be personal karma? So he wanted to avoid this; otherwise his whole philosophy becomes different.
Hayagriva: Well this is Jung's conclusion on the matter. He says, "Have I lived before in the past as a specific person?" (break) (aside:) ...other track?
Hari-sauri: Yes.
Hayagriva: This is a continuation of Jung. Concerning whether or not karma is personal, Jung concludes, "Have I lived before in the past as a specific personality, and did I progress so far in that life that I am now able to seek a solution?"
Prabhupada: Yes. That is tle fact.
Hayagriva: He says, "I do not know."
Prabhupada: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, tatah paurva-dehikam yatate paurva-dehikam. This is individual.
Hayagriva: He says, "Buddha left the question open, and I like to assume that he himself did not know with certainty."
Prabhupada: (chuckles softly while Hayagriva continues reading)
Hayagriva: "I could well imagine that I might have lived in former centuries and there encountered questions I was not yet able to answer, that I had to be born again because I had not fulfilled the task that was given to me."
Prabhupada: That is fact.
Hayagriva: "When I die, my deeds will follow along with me. That is how I imagine it."
Prabhupada: That is karma.
Hayagriva: That's personal karma?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "I will bring with me what I have done. In the meantime it is important to insure that I do not stand at the end with empty hands."
Prabhupada: No. So you are, if you are regularly progressing, that then at the end it is not empty, it is completeness. To go back to home, back to Godhead, that is completeness; that is not empty. The Mayavadi can not understand the posi..., positivity of God's kingdom, so they simply make empty. There is no positive concept, therefore...
Hayagriva: No. He says... No. He says, "It is important that I do not stand at the end with empty hands."
Prabhupada: Yes. That, that nobody has...
Hayagriva: That, in others words, he has good deeds and...
Prabhupada: No, not only good deeds, that is our aspiration. We don't want emptiness.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: Because these materialistic persons, they do not want emptiness, they think that "After finishing this life everything will be empty. So let me enjoy as much as possible in this life." That is their view, that "I am going to be empty. Now before becoming empty, let me enjoy as far..." And the sense enjoyment is the center of material life. Therefore these materialistic person(s) are so much after sense enjoyment. Propriety is one of them. Because their life is empty after death, so because, be..., "Before it becomes empty, let me enjoy as far as possible."
Hayagriva: He believes that karma brings rebirth. He says, "If a karma still remains to be disposed of, then the soul relapses again into desires and returns to life once more..."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: "...perhaps even doing so out of the realization that something remains to be completed. In my case it must have been primarily a passionate urge toward understanding which brought about my birth, for that is the strongest element in my nature."
Prabhupada: Yes. So that understanding, I do not know whether he has fulfilled. That understanding is Krsna. That is explained, bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate. That understanding is full, complete, when he comes to the point of understanding Krsna, and as soon as he understands Krsna, his life is successful. His, this journey, material journey, stops. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti. That is full understanding. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah. When he understands Krsna in complete... And Krsna is giving lesson how he, one can understand Krsna completely. Asamsayam samagram mam yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu. Krsna says, "Now hear how you can understand Me in complete, without any doubt." That He begins in the Seventh Chapter. So if we understand Krsna in complete, without any doubt, then our next birth is in the spiritual world. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya. This is the version of Bhagavata. So we have got this opportunity, at least those who have come to Krsna consciousness, to understand Krsna completely, without any doubt. Then our life is successful.
Hayagriva: He sees the word of God and God as being the same.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: He says, "It is not that God is a myth, but that myth is the revelation of a divine light in man. It is not we who invent myth; rather, it speaks to us as a word of God. The word of God comes to us, and we have no way of distinguishing whether and to what extent it is different from God."
Prabhupada: It is not at all different from God. God is absolute; therefore His words are as good as God. That we were discussing this morning, that God's name and God is the same. God's pastimes and God is the same. God's Deity and God is the same. So anything in relationship with God is God, just like Bhagavad-gita is God. Because everything is God, maya tatam idam sarvam, everything is God, but when there is God realization, that is God. Otherwise God, everything is God. Without God, nothing can exist.
Hayagriva: He conceived of a perso..., what he called a persona. He says, "The persona is the individual system of adaptation to, or the manner he assumes in dealing with, the world. A profession, for example, has its own characteristic persona, only the danger is people become identical with their personas: the professor with his textbook, the tenor with his voice. One can say, with a little exaggeration, that the persona is that which in reality one is not, but which oneself as well as others think one is."
Prabhupada: That persona--for as I take it from this statement--that persona, when when comes to the understanding that I am eternal servant of God, that persona is salvation, perfection. Persona must be there, but so long one is in the material world, his persona, or identification with some interest, varieties. Sometimes his persona is with the family, his persona is with the community or with the nation or with some idealism, Communism, this "ism," that "ism," this is going on. But when that persona comes to the understanding of Krsna, that "I am eternal servant of Krsna," that is perfection. Persona must continue.
Hayagriva: So this persona he's speaking of is like the false ego.
Prabhupada: The false ego, so long he is in the material world. Otherwise "I am." "I am American," this is false ego, and "I am servant of God, Krsna," that is reality, that is real ego. We say, therefore, false ego. Ego must be there. That purified ego is, "I am servant of Krsna." Otherwise "I am this," "I am that," "I am this," "I am that."
Hayagriva: He envisions the self as a personality...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...composed of the conscious and also the subconscious.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything is depending on the personality, and he is surrounded by so many conceptions. When the en..., what is called, (indistinct), we see different types of dreams, but when we are purified, then, just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu was dreaming Krsna's pastime. So similarly, when we are completely purified we dream also about Krsna, His activities, His preaching, so many in connection with reference to Krsna. So persona is permanent, but when we apply this persona in the material activities, that is temporary, false, false ego, and when the same persona is engaged as servant of Krsna, that is self-realization.
Hayagriva: He believed that the self, which is basically a personality...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...composed of the conscious and the subconscious, the sub..., can never be fully known by the individual, but it does have individuality.
Prabhupada: That individual, I, I know that I am individual person, I have got my own ideas, my own activities. Where is the difficulty? Simply it has to be purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam. I am identifying with America or India or Hindu or Muslim or this or that. This should be purified. I should identify with Krsna, that "I am only servant of Krsna and devotees." Then I am purified.
Hayagriva: He did... He speaks of the soul in this way. He says, "If the human soul is anything, it must be of unimaginable complexity and diversity, so that it cannot possibly be approached through a mere psychology of instinct."
Prabhupada: That he does not know. As soon as we train ourself, that just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "I am not a brahmana, I am not a ksatriya, I am not a sudra, I am not a sannyasi, I am not brahmacari." By negation. "I am not, I am not, I am not." Then what is your actual? That gopi-bhartuh kamalayor dasa-dasanu: "I am the servant of the servant of the servant of the maintainer of gopis." That means Krsna. "That is my real identifmcation." So I have, so long we do not identify as the eternal servant of Krsna, there will be so many varieties of identification, and bhakti, devotional service, means to become purified from all this false identification.
Hayagriva: He says, "I can only gaze with wonder and awe at the depths and heights of our psychic nature."
Prabhupada: Psychic nature means so long you are not Krsna conscious there will be varieties of psychic nature, because we are changing constantly to different bodies by transmigration. So we, we are accumulating varieties of experiences. But if we don't change, remain fixed up in Krsna consciousness, then one identification we have got--that "I am servant of Krsna. My duty is to serve Him." Karisye vacanam tava, as Arjuna realized after studying Bhagavad-gita. "Yes," nasto mohah smrtir labdha. "Now I have revived my real consciousness and I will act as You dictate." That is final.
Hayagriva: Concerning God and God's relation...
Prabhupada: Find out this verse, nasto mohah smrtir labdha tvat-prasadan mayacyuta. Find out.
Hari-sauri: What was that line again, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Nastah, n-a-s-t-a, nastah mohah.
Hari-sauri: Nasto mohah smrtir labdha?
Prabhupada: Hm. Now we, we are passing on through mohah, illusion. By Krsna consciousness the delusion should be over.
Hari-sauri: Nasto mohah smrtir labdha tvat-prasadan mayacyuta.
Prabhupada: Tvat-prasadat.
Hari-sauri: Sthito 'smi.
Prabhupada: Tvat-prasada?
Hari-sauri: Yes.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hari-sauri: Tvat-prasadan mayacyuta.
Prabhupada: Oh. Tvat-pradada, "by Your mercy." This mohah, the illusory existence, that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am black," "I am white," "Hindu," "Muslim," this is all mohah. So it can be liberated. From this mohah we can be liberated by the mercy of Krsna. Nastah mohah smrtih labdha prasadat tvat, "by Your mercy." Then?
Hari-sauri: Sthito 'smi gata-sandehah karisye...
Prabhupada: Sthito 'smi gata-sandehah: "Now all my doubts are over. I am fixed up now in my original position." So what is that original position?
Hari-sauri: Karisye vacanam tava.
Prabhupada: Karisye vacanam tava: "Now I simply act and do whatever You say, that's all." That is perfection. He is perfect. Everything is there.
Hayagriva: Concerning God and the individual soul, he writes...
Prabhupada: Now here is the perfection. Krsna is speaking; individual soul, Arjuna, is hearing. So hearing, hearing, when he comes to the conclusion that "My all illusion is now over by Your mercy. Now I am fixed up in my original position." And what is that original position? Karisye vacanam tava: "Whatever You say, I shall do. The Bhagavad-gita began from the point that Krsna said to Arjuna, "You fight," and he denied to fight. He put so many pleas, that "How can I fight with them?" and so on, so on, so on, so on, so on. This whole discussion was made. Now at the end he says, "Now my mohah, illusion, is over. I am situated in my own original constitutional position." What is that? Karisye vacanam tava: "Whatever You say, I shall do, that's all. That's my position." That conclusive platform, that we shall simply execute the orders of Krsna, that is perfect. (break)
Hayagriva: This is continuation of Jung. Jung noted that there are five types of rebirths, not he that particularly ascribed to them, but that he noted that in religions that there are five types of rebirth. One is called metempsychosis. He says, "According to this view, one's life is prolonged in time by passing through different bodily existences, or from another point of view it is a life sequence interrupted by different reincarnations. It is by no means certain whether continuity of personality is guaranteed or not. There may only be a continuity of karma." So this is like a transmigration of souls.
Prabhupada: Yes. What is the technical name?
Hayagriva: But... He called, its metempsychosis.
Prabhupada: What is the meaning?
Hayagriva: It means transmigration of souls...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...but through different, passing through different bodily existences.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: The life sequence is interrupted by different reincarnations, but it's not certain whether or not personality survives. There may only continuity of karma.
Prabhupada: Yes. Personal, personality is there. Suppose a man rebukes a dog. So the dog also responses. Even a small ant, it is going to certain direction, if you check it, it will protest. So personality is there always, either in the body of human being, cats, dogs, even an ant. So the bodily changes do not affect the personality, but one identifies himself according to the body. When a soul is within the, a body of a dog, he thinks in that bodily conception, "I am dog, I have my duty." In the human society also. When one is born in America, he thinks, "I am American, and my duty is like this, my duty is like this, I am..." So this, according to the body the personality manifests, but personality is there.
Hayagriva: Personality is there certainly, but is it continued? Is there a continuity of personality from the dead body to the new body?
Prabhupada: Yes, certainly.
Hayagriva: Well, according to the first theory of rebirth, that's not guaranteed. Now the second theory of rebirth...
Prabhupada: No. That they do not know. The same soul is, is passing through another gross body with his mental, intellectual identification. He is..., that is nature's gift. That is said in the Bhagavad-gita: karanam guna-sango 'sya. As we have infected a certain type of modes of nature, he is getting a similar body, but the person is the same.
Hayagriva: Now the, this would be the view, the second view, that is reincarnation. "This concept of rebirth necessarily implies the continuity of personality. Here the human personality is regarded as continuous and accessible to memory, so that when one is incarnated or born one is able, at least potentially, to remember that one has lived through previous existences, and that these existences were one's own, namely that he had the same ego form as the present life. As a rule, reincarnation means rebirth in a human body."
Prabhupada: Not human body. Just, we have got historical references in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. A king, Bharata Maharaja, he was king, and in next life he became a deer, and the next life he became a brahmana. So the soul is continuing, changing. The example is given, just like a man changes his dress. The man is the same; the dress may be different. That is going on. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya. This very word is there. Just when the dress is old it cannot be used any more, he has to change another, to another dress. It is very common sense. So now that next dress you have to purchase or you have to prepare according to your money. Your dress is something now; the next dress you will purchase according to your money. So the exact example is very nice--to change the dress. The man is the same, but he exchanges dress, and the dress is supplied according to the price he can pay. This is common sense. So the price means karma. According to karma he has done, he gets a particular type of body.
Hayagriva: The third type...
Prabhupada: Another continuation is that the child changes body. So as he was acting in his childhood, he does not act in the same way when he has got the different body of a young man, but the same soul is there. It can be understood very easily.
Hayagriva: The third type of rebirth listed is called resurrection. Now there are two types of resurrection. He says, "It may be a carnal, that is gross, material body, as in the Christian assumption that this body will be resurrected." That is the Christian doctrine, is that at the end of the world the..., somehow or other, through the miracle of God, the gross body will reassemble itself and ascend into heaven or descend into hell. Somehow survival of the gross body. He says, "On a higher level..."
Prabhupada: And what he will do in the meantime?
Hayagriva: I don't know what happens...
Devotee: (indistinct)
Hayagriva: ...what happens to the material elements. The material elements disintegrate, disintegrate...
Prabhupada: The material body...
Hayagriva: They're distributed in nature.
Prabhupada: ...it finishes, but of course this idea can be maintained. In the higher sense, that is not gross body; that is spiritual body. That is applicable to God and special representative of God, not to all. Then that is not material body; that is spiritual body. Means when God appears He appears in His spiritual body. It does not change. Just like Krsna says that millions of years ago He spoke to the sun-god, and Arjuna questioned, "How it is to be understood that millions of years ago You spoke it?" So He said that "Yes, I did. You were also present, but you do not remember. I remember." So how it is possible? One who does not change the body, He can remember. Just like when we do not change the body, I can remember, but when we change body we do not remember. This is the principle. So this resurrection, I do not know what the exact meaning, but as to the Bhagavad-gita, it is said, Krsna said, sambhavamy atma-mayaya. He comes in His original body, not covered by material body. Therefore, because He has no material body, there is no change.
Hayagriva: I think the Christian, they must..., they do not have a clear idea of this.
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: He says, "On a higher level the process of resurrection is no longer understood in a gross material sense. It is assumed that the resurrection of the dead is the raising up of the corpus glorificaciones, that is the glorified body, the subtle body, in the state of incorruptibility."
Prabhupada: That I said, the spiritual body. The spiritual body never changes. When one comes with the spiritual body there is no change. Material body changes, but God has no material body. The conception of..., Mayavadi conception that Absolute Truth is impersonal, when He comes as a person He accepts a material body, that is not understood by those who are advanced in spiritual knowledge or take information from Krsna. Krsna says, avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritah. Because He appears as a human being, rascals think that He is a human being, but He is not. Param bhavam ajananto. He has no knowledge of the spiritual body.
Hayagriva: The fourth form of rebirth is called renovacio and applies to the transformation of a mortal into an immortal being, of a corporeal into a spiritual being, and of a human into a divine being. Well-known prototypes of this change are the transfiguration and ascension of Christ and the assumption of the mother of God into heaven after her death together with her body. In other words, the body is somehow..., it doesn't die, the gross body doesn't die, but it's transformed.
Prabhupada: Spiritual, spiritual body continues. Spiritual body never dies. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. So hanyamane, destruction, is of the material body. The spiritual body is never destroyed. Na jayate na mriyate va. The spiritual body, neither it is generated, neither it is dead. Nityah sasvatah: it is eternal. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire: it, it is not destroyed even after the destruction of the material body. That is spiritual body.
Hayagriva: But is there any example of this ascension into heaven? Didn't Arjuna...
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hayagriva: ...ascend into...
Devotee: Yudhisthira?
Hayagriva: The higher... Who?
Devotee: Yudhisthira was...
Hayagriva: Was it Yudhisthira?
Prabhupada: Yes, there are many instances. The special instance is Krsna and His associates.
Hayagriva: They didn't go through any death of any sort.
Prabhupada: No.
Hayagriva: But the body traveled to...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...higher spheres.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is...
Hayagriva: Krsna also took Arjuna...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: ...to...
Prabhupada: Spiritual body everyone possesses.
Hayagriva: The fifth... (break) This is the continuation of Carl Jung. The fifth type of rebirth is called transformation, and this is a form of indirect rebirth. One may use the initiation ceremony of the twice-born, of the brahmana. In other words, one has to witness or take part in some rite of transformation. This may be a ceremony, and through his presence at the ritual the individual participates in divine grace.
Prabhupada: That is transfer, transformation of the body into knowledge. Dvija, this word, exact word, is dvija. One birth is by the father and mother, and the next birth is by the spiritual master and Vedic knowledge. That means..., that is also liberation. He understands that he is not this material body. That is spiritual education. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati. So birth of knowledge, that is called dvija.
Hayagriva: Now all of...
Prabhupada: Uh?
Hayagriva: All of these preceding quotes were taken from Jung's autobiography.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hayagriva: Now the following quotes are taken from a, a much later book, one of the last books he wrote, called The Undiscovered Self. And it's very popular, and in it he discusses religion, in certain ways almost anticipates the Krsna consciousness movement. At the beginning he defines the purpose of religion. He says, "The meaning and purpose of religion lie in the relationship of the individual to God, or to the path of salvation and liberation." And of the first instance he gives Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and the last instance he gives Buddhism. He says, "From this basic fact, that is the relationship of the individual to God, all ethics is derived, which, without the individual's responsibility before God, can be called nothing more than conventional morality."
Prabhupada: Yes. Morality, as we understand from Bhagavad-gita, that nobody can approach God without being purified of all sinful reaction. Yesam anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam. A person who has finished all sinful activities, and simply standing on the platform of pious activities, they can understand what is God and be engaged in God's service. And another place it is said by Arjuna, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan: "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, param brahma." Every living being is Brahman, spiritual, but Krsna is the Supreme Being; therefore He is param brahma, and the param dhama, and the resort of everything, ultimate resort of everything, and pavitra, purified, there is no material contamination. So, what is this? What does he say in this?
Hayagriva: That, that same point?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: All ethics are derived.
Prabhupada: Yes. So to become completely pure, then he is the necessity of morality and ethics. Just like we prescribe, "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling." These are the four pillars of sinful life. If we avoid these thing, then we can stay on the platform of purity. And God consciousness, Krsna consciousness, is based on this morality. One who cannot follow the principles, he falls down from the spiritual platform, and he cannot make any progress. So purity is the basic principle of God consciousness.
Hayagriva: Jung sees atheistic Communism as the greatest threat in the world today. He writes that "The Communist revolution has debased man, because it robs him of his freedom, not only in the social but in the moral and spiritual sense. The state has taken the place of God. That is why, seen from this angle, the socialist dictatorships are religions, and state slavery is a form of worship."
Prabhupada: Yes, I agree with him. That is the degradation of human civilization. But the philosophy of the Communist, that everyone has equal right or everyone must take share of the state equally, that is little, basic principle of real communism. According to our understanding, God is the father, material nature is the mother, and we, all living entities, are sons of the father and mother. So as sons everyone has right to live at the cost of father's property. The whole universe is the property of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and all living entities, they are being supported by the father. But one should be satisfied with the supplies allotted to him. That is, Isopanisad says, tena tyaktena bhunjitha. There is no need of encroaching on others' property. We should not become envious of the capitalist or rich man, because everyone is given his allotment by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I should be satisfied with my allotment. I should not encroach upon others' allotment. But the exploitation idea is not there. The same thing, that nobody should exploit. If one has become rich man, that's all right. That, that is natural. One is born in rich family, from his very birth he is a rich man. So why we should interfere his richness? But everyone should be God conscious. Either the rich man or the poor man, they must be God conscious. And God consciousness means that the property I am owning, or the position I am placed in, that is by God's arrangement. Therefore my duty is to serve God in my position. Sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van manobhih. This is the philosophy of, of Srimad-Bhagavatam, confirmed by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sthane sthitah. We should stay in our place, as it is allotted by God, but our common culture should be sruti-gatam tanu-van manobhih. We should hear about God and act accordingly--it doesn't matter in which work--then there will be harmony. If we become envious, that "Why this man has become rich? I shall encroach upon him," that is again, another type of revolution or encroachment. That is not required. You remain in your position as you have been allotted, but everyone be engaged in the service of the Lord. The, another example is that the, there are different position of different parts of the body--the head, arms, the belly, the legs. They are different parts of body doing different function. But the idea is how to maintain this body. So if we, even if we remain in different position, that is we get from the birth, but we, we should be engaged in the service of the Supreme, the owner. Just like the hand is owned by the body; therefore hand must work for the body. The leg is owned by the body; therefore the leg must work for the body. So we are all part and parcel of God, and we should, everyone, we should work for God. And how we shall work, that we have to hear from the position where we are, and act accordingly, then there will be real spiritual communism.
Hayagriva: In the atheistic Communism he says, "The goals of religion, deliverance from evil, reconciliation with God, rewards in the hereafter, and so on, turns into worldly promises about freedom from care for one's daily bread, the just distribution of material goods, universal prosperity in the future, and shorter working hours." In other words, material, worldly promises are given.
Prabhupada: In the Communism?
Hayagriva: In, in atheistic Com..., in Communism.
Prabhupada: Yes. But they have no idea of spiritual life, neither they can understand that there is spirit with the soul, within the body. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara. That they cannot understand.
Hayagriva: But he feels that socialism or Marxism, Communism, cannot possibly replace religion in the proper traditional sense.
Prabhupada: No, it is not religion. It is simply mental speculation--how to adjust material things. It will never be able to adjust it. That is their simply imagination. It will all fail at the ultimate end.
Hayagriva: He says, "A natural function which has existed from the beginning like the religious function cannot be disposed of with rationalistic and so-called enlightened criticism."
Prabhupada: The thing is that these people, they do not understand what is religion. Religion you cannot avoid. That is characteristic. Just like we gave several times this example, that everything has got a particular characteristic. Just like salt, salt is never sweet, and sweet is never salt. It has got a characteristic. A chile is pungent. Similarly, living entity, we are..., what is our characteristic? Our characteristic is to render service. Either you take Communism or this "ism" or that "ism," your real characteristic to render service, that will not change. The, in the capitalist country they are asking people that "You work in the factory and work for me, and whatever I say, you do," and the same thing is being dictated by the Communist leaders. Where is the difference? There is no difference, but it is only difference of nonsensical idea. Therefore a mass of people, they have to render service, either to Mr. Lenin or Mr. Roosevelt, it doesn't matter. He has to render service. But both the services are not being profitable to the mass of people. Therefore we suggest following the footprints of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, that you serve Krsna. Service is your essential duty, but because your service is wrongly being executed, you are not happy. But if you render your service to Krsna, that is natural and you will be happy. So our Krsna conscious men, they are happy when rendering service to Krsna, or God. So individually or collectively, if every state, every individual person renders service to Krsna, then that is perfect stage of life. He has to render service to somebody, but because it is misplaced, he is never happy, but when the service is rendered to Krsna, then he will be happy. Service you have to render, without any failure, but he does not know where to render service. That is the difficulty. Communist dictating, "You, sir, render service to me," and the capitalist dictating, "Give me service, sir." But Krsna says, "No. No service to this, no service..." Sarva-dharman parityajya: "You simply give your service to Me, then aham tvam sarva-papebhyo, you will become free from all sinful reaction of life." That is our position.
Hayagriva: He feels that a materialistic Western capitalism cannot possibly defeat a pseudoreligion like Marxism. He says that the only way to combat atheistic Communism is for the individual to adopt, to adopt a nonmaterialistic religion.
Prabhupada: That is Krsna consciousness. That is Krsna consciousness. It has nothing to do with materialistic "isms." It is directly connect, connected with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. God demands that sarva-dharman parityajya mam. So we are teaching that "You, you are servant, but your service is wrongly placed; therefore you are not happy. You place or render the service to Krsna, you will be happy." This is Krsna consciousness. We are neither for capitalism nor for so-called Communism, or not for so-called religion also. We are only for Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Hayagriva: Jung laments the fact that such a nonmaterialistic faith does not presently exist in the West. He writes, "Not only does the West lack a uniform faith that could block the progress of a fanatical ideology"--that is Marxism--"but as the father of Marxist philosophy," because Marx was a Westerner, "it makes use of exactly the same spiritual," so-called spiritual, "assumptions, the same arguments and aims." So he feels that man is desperately in need of a religion that has immediate meaning, and he feels that Christianity is no longer effective in combating this.
Prabhupada: He has predicted very nice. This is Krsna consciousness movement, which is above everything, either Christianism or Marxism or capitalism or anything. It is based on Bhagavad-gita, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. So actually it is a fact. Krsna says that if you adopt this principle of life, Krsna consciousness, then you will remain above all sinful reaction of life and make progress spiritually, gradually.
mam upetya kaunteya
duhkhalayam asasvatam
napnuvanti mahatmanah
samsiddhim paramam gatah
If you cultivate Krsna consciousness, then the result will be that "The devotee will come back to Me. And one who attains to Me, he hasn't got to go back again to this material world." In another place the same thing is said: tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti. "Those who are Krsna conscious they, giving, after giving up this body"--everyone has to give up this body--"he does not accept any more the material body. He comes to Me." "Comes to Me" means "He comes to Me in his spiritual body." So Krsna consciousness movement means to give up this material world and go back to home, back to Godhead.
Hayagriva: He says, "If the individual is not truly regenerated in spirit, society cannot be either, for society is the sum total of individuals in need of redemption."
Prabhupada: Yes. That... It is individual. We are individually initiating to Krsna consciousness that the mass of people becomes a majority. If not in majority, at least a less percentage, then the face of the world will change. There is no doubt about it.
Hayagriva: "The salvation of the world consists in the salvation of the individual soul. Man's individual relation to God would be an effective shield against these pernicious influences," that is, atheistic Marxism.
Prabhupada: Yes. At least those who have taken Krsna consciousness seriously, they never be converted either by Marxism or this "ism" or that "ism." That is not possible. They can convert the Marxist into Krsna consciousness, but a Krsna conscious person can never be turned into Marxism. That is not possible. Param drstva nivartate. That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Because they have seen the highest perfection of life, they cannot be misled by all these third-class, fourth-class philosophies.
Hayagriva: He also felt that materialistic progress is a possible hindrance.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is very good idea. That is confirmed by Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jada-vidya jato mayara vaibhava tomara bhajane badha. Material progress means expansion of the external energy, maya, illusion. So we are already in illusion, and therefore we practically see the so-called scientists, so-called philosophers, because they are materially advanced, they cannot understand even what is God and what is our relationship. So this is hindrance, the so-called advancement of material science, of material knowledge, is undoubtedly hindrance. Tomara bhajane badha. They are all hindrances to the progressive march of Krsna consciousness. When we minimize our necessities, that is saintly life--the bare necessities of life. We are not after very luxurious way of life. We are satisfied only with the bare necessities of life. So it is not an attempt for material progress. It is simply an attempt to make spiritual progress, Krsna consciousness.
Hayagriva: Because a favorable environment merely strengthens the dangerous tendency to expect everything to originate from outside,...
Prabhupada: No, everything originates from inside, from the soul.
Hayagriva: He says, "There must be a deep-seated change in the inner man." He also sees that modern man needs a guru, or someone, he says, "to explain religion to man. Whereas the man of today can easily think and understand all the 'so-called truths' dished out to him by the State, his understanding of religion is made considerably more difficult owing to the lack of explanations. Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?"
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the Vedic injunction. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet. It is essential that one must go to guru and with guru Guru is representative of God. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair. He, guru, being representative of God, he is worshiped as God, but he never says that "I am God." He is servant God. He is worshiped as God, but he is servant of God, and God is the master God. This is the conception of Vaisnava philosophy. And who is guru, that is described by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He asked everyone to become guru. Amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa: "Wherever you are staying, it doesn't matter. You become a guru and deliver all these foolish persons who are in ignorance." So one may say that "I am not so learned. How can I become guru?" So Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that you do not require to be a learned scholar. There are many so-called learned foolish scholars. It has no meaning. You just instruct what Krsna has instructed. Yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa. So real instruction is there, Bhagavad-gita, and any who explains Bhagavad-gita as it is, he is guru. This is the definition of guru. So if one is fortunate enough to approach such guru, then his life becomes successful. Guru is essential.
Hayagriva: He feels on the one hand philosophy has degenerated into exclusively...
Prabhupada: Mental...
Hayagriva: ...intellectual and academic speculation.
Prabhupada: ...speculation. That is our opinion. They are simply mentally speculating. It has no value. Unless you are directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead and assimilate the instructions given by Him, by all your reason, and then in practical life you execute it, then one can become guru, he can do good to others; otherwise not possible.
Hayagriva: And on the other hand religion, the Christian religion which was understood in the Middle Ages, has become strange and unintelligible to the man of today.
Prabhupada: It is because it is simply dogmatic. The preachers of the religion, they have no idea, clear idea, but officially they speak something. Neither he understands, neither he can make others to understand. But Krsna consciousness movement is not such big thing. It is clear in every respect. Therefore this is the expected movement as Mr. Jung wanted. So every sane man should cooperate with this movement and liberate the human society from the gross darkness of ignorance.
Hayagriva: He characterizes the true religious man as one who is accustomed to the thought of not being sole master of his own house. He believes that God, and not he himself, decides in the end.
Prabhupada: Yes. Naturally that is the position. What we can decide? That there is already controller over me, so how I can be Absolute? No. Therefore everyone should depend on the supreme controller. That is called, technical language, it is called saranagati, full surrender. Full surrender. That is called saranagati.
Hayagriva: He feels that the only thing that keeps modern man..., that will keep modern man from simply dissolving into the crowd is, he says, "We must ask, 'Have I any religious experience, an immediate relation to God and hence that certainty which will keep me as an individual from dissolving in the crowd of humanity?' " So one's relation with God assures one of one's individuality.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is individual. God is also individual. So one individual is subordinate to the chief indi..., individual. That is the Vedic version. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam., God is also individual being, but He is the Supreme Being, and we are individual beingw, innumerable. So the difference is that the supreme living being is maintaining us, and we are being maintained. That we should understand. The same example as I gave, the father and the children in the family. The father is maintainer and the children are maintained. This is the real conception of philosophy. The mother is the material nature and father is God, and we are all children. We have got rights to enjoy the father's property, but not encroaching upon others', but as it is allotted by the father. "You sit down here, you take this, that's all," that, that much right I have got. I do not transgress the order of the father; then it is peaceful situation.
Hayagriva: So that's the end of Jung. (end)
Philosophy Discussions SKIN_TH.HAY
B. F. Skinner and Henry David Thoreau
Hayagriva: This is B. F. Skinner. He's an American, contemporary American, and he's a behaviorist. He believes that technology can control people. Just as we can adjust the course of a spaceship, the environment can shape the individual, and therefore it is up to us to control the environment.
Prabhupada: That is Vedic system, to control the whole mass of people in classification. The intelligent class, the administrative class, the productive class, and the worker class, and less than them, and in their respective position, if they cooperate for the common cause, that becomes a perfect society. Brahmana, ksatriya... Therefore this system is called varnasrama, four varnas and four asrama, social order and spiritual order. The ultimate end is spiritual, but if the social order is not organized, then spiritual order is also disorganized. So there must be division of labor and activities. This is?
Hayagriva: Skinner believes in what he calls reinforcement, reinforcing people's behavior. He doesn't believe in punishing people when they do wrong, but he believes more in a system of rewards. He writes, "A government may prevent defection by making life more interesting, by providing bread and circuses, and by encouraging sports, gambling, the use of alchohol and other drugs, and various kinds of sexual behavior, where the effect is to keep people within reach of adversive sanctions." So he...
Prabhupada: He recommends these things?
Hayagriva: So he believes that through..., by providing the people with sense gratification the government can keep people from acting in an antisocial way.
Prabhupada: That means he is also of the same category. No, that will not help. Just like, the example is given in this connection, that when there is fire, if you think that putting more and more ghee the fire will extinguish, that is not possible. To keep the society in order they must be educated according to his capacity, and they should be engaged for common benefit. That is required. Not that to encourage them in their bad habits things will be done nicely. No. That is not possible.
Hayagriva: He ultimately believes in bringing people under control. He says, "If there is any purpose or direction in the evolution of a culture, it has to do with bringing people under the control of more and more of the consequences of their behavior."
Prabhupada: Yes. Human life is meant for control. That is the Vedic process, tapasya, because the aim is spiritual perfection. If we allow material activities according to the desire of the people, then they forget spiritual identity altogether. So that aim of life in the human form of body is missing, that Vedic civilization is how to raise one to the spiritual platform. Otherwise he remains an animal. First of all we must know what is the aim of life, and then the question of organization. If you do not know what is the aim of life, material adjustment will not make the condition of the society very good. (break ?)
Hayagriva: His most famous book was Walden II, which was... Thoreau lived in Walden, Henry Thoreau. He lived alone. It was a solitary experiment of plain living and high thinking. He writes, "We practice the Thoreauvian principle of avoiding unnecessary possessions." Thoreau pointed out that the average Concord laborer worked ten or fifteen hours of his..., fifteen years of his life just to have a roof over his head. We could say ten weeks and be on the safe side. Food is plentiful and healthful but not expensive." So he goes on to say that "We strike for economic freedom, we do not believe in unnecessary consumption, we consume less than the average American." So it's an attempt to construct a society somewhat similar to New Vrindaban, with the exception of no spiritual basis as such.
Prabhupada: That is primitive life, jungle life. Monkey civilization. Of course they claim to be descendent of monkey, that they will go on like that. But that is not human civilization, to keep the monkey in the jungle. We want life, very peaceful life without any unnecessary, what is called, necessities. That is all right. But the aim should be spiritual perfection. Therefore the first thing is what is the aim of life, that should be ascertained. Without aim, if you lounge on this ocean, where you are going? That is useless attempt. We must first of all know what is the aim of life. These people, they do not know what is the aim of life. Simply, superficially they are trying to adjust, "This will be done, this will be done." No. These are all mental speculation. First of all you must know what is the aim of life, and to this, to that direction, we have to adjust things. That is perfection.
Hayagriva: He writes, "Walden II isn't a religious community. It differs in that respect from all other reasonably permanent communities of the past. We don't give our children any religious training, though parents are free to do so if they wish." Then he goes on to say that "The simple fact is the religious practices which our members brought to Walden II have fallen away little by little like drinking and smoking." He says, "We have no need for formal religion, either as ritual or philosophy."
Prabhupada: He has no need of religion? Does he say like that?
Hayagriva: That's what he says.
Prabhupada: So without religion, without spiritual ideas, then what is the difference between dogs and man? There is no difference. Dharmena hina pasubhih samanah. That is the verdict of Vedic civilization. If you do not know what is the spiritual necessity of life, and for awakening his spiritual interest of life the religious system is introduced in the human society... But in that, of course so-called religion system will not help. Therefore we repeatedly say religion means the execution of the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, no conception, no idea what is God's order, then there is no religion also. That is not religion. So that kind of religion is also, can be neglected, but religion must be there. Otherwise the human society becomes another edition of the animal society.
Hayagriva: Well, his conception of religion is that of the..., having, playing some music, and uh, daliance with the supernatural, intellectual aesthetic enjoyment. He says, "What else does organized religion provide?" Religion is a form of, sort of enjoying art.
Prabhupada: No. Art is there, and singing is there, dancing is there, but that is based on spiritual conception. That is the difficulty in the Western countries, that they are not fully aware of the conception of religion. Therefore Bhagavata says that cheating religion, dharmah projjhita-kaitavah. There is no purpose, simply a recreation of different nature in material life. That is, means, they do not know, except sense gratification, any other engagement. They think religion is also another kind of, type of sense gratification, "So we can perform it." And actually that is going on. Whenever there is some festival they change the daily way of life into some more eating, drinking, and dancing, like that. But religion means to understand God and our relationship with God and live in God practically. That is real religion. That is the aim of life.
Hayagriva: In Walden II he advised women to get married at about the age of sixteen so that by the time she's twenty-two or twenty-three a girl will be finished with bearing children, and then she can be on an equal par with men, or her role can then be equal and she can devote her time to other interesting prospects.
Prabhupada: What is that interesting prospects? That he doesn't know.
Hayagriva: Well, uh, he mentions, oh, working together, types of work, all, all types of work are shared equally. Family ties are discouraged. Children are generally held in common. People can live the good life, and he defines, "The good life means the chance to exercise talents and abilities. And we have let it be so. We have time for sports, hobbies, arts and crafts, and, most important of all, the expression of that interest in the world which is science in the deepest sense, an exploration of nature. Last of all, the good life means relaxation and rest." So the, the woman would be able to participate in the good life when she's finished bearing children at the age of twenty-three or whatever.
Prabhupada: They are, difficulty, that is missing, that what is their ideal life, what is the aim of life. So he is prescribing so many things. That will not help the human society. And women, about women, this idea that (s)he should be married at sixteen years old, that is good, but it is not that women stops child breeding by the twenty-two years age. No. There are many women and they can beget children in, in advanced age. I, so far personally I know, my mother was the youngest daughter, and she was born when my grandmother was fifty years old. So it is not that the woman stops child begetting at the age of twenty-two years age. Nowadays up to thirty years, twenty-five years, woman, woman is married, so how he, she can stop?
Hayagriva: Well, he wouldn't say stop. He says, "A young couple will live quite as well together whether married or unmarried. Sex is no problem in itself. Here the adolescent finds an immediate and satisfactory expression of his natural impulses." So since the children are held in common, marriage..., you may get married if you like, but it's not required.
Prabhupada: Children?
Hayagriva: The children are held in common. They are not... They don't acknowledge any particular, particular parent.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Hayagriva: He feels his society is a society of what we call "do your own thing." That is, he doesn't really condemn anything. He says, "What's wrong with love or marriage or parenthood? What's unwholesome about sex? Why make unnecessary problems, unnecessary delays?" The idea is to simplify everything and to get rid of all the impediments to an enjoyable life.
Prabhupada: But he does not know what is that enjoyable life. He cannot define, definitely, what is that enjoyable life. He is simply hankering after it. That is natural. But he does not know definitely what is that enjoyable life.
Hayagriva: As close as he comes to a definition of it, he says, "We simply arrange a world in which serious conflicts occur as seldom as possible, or, with a little luck, not at all."
Prabhupada: What does it mean? Hm?
Tamala Krsna: He's trying to make an ideal arrangement where no conflicts come about.
Prabhupada: That is materially impossible.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: Unless you come to the spiritual platform, that is not possible at all. But he has no idea of the spiritual life. But these dreams are there because everyone is spiritual being, so he wants that ideal society. But because he has no spiritual idea or aim, he is simply putting some program which is almost Utopia. It will never be possible.
Hayagriva: He feels that Walden II should be a community without a leader, that uh...
Prabhupada: He wants to become leader.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is the idea.
Hayagriva: The man who's setting up the community.
Prabhupada: That's all right. He is suggesting that "You make me leader." That is the...
Hayagriva: This sounds very familiar.
Prabhupada: Everyone says, "Don't accept leader. Accept me as leader, that's all." But our proposal is that the, without leader nothing can be done. And the supreme leader is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and His representative should become leader. Then the society will be perfect. The supreme leader is God. So He gives instruction, and real leader takes the instruction by disciplic succession, and for the benefit of the total human society they spread the message of God. That is our Krsna consciousness movement. Without leader nothing can be done. Even if he says that without leader, he is, that preaching is also leadership. So why people should accept his leadership if there is no need of leader?
Hayagriva: This was the position of Mr. Rose, who started to try to, try a community at, where we have New Vrindaban now. The man we initially bought New Vrindaban from. This was his position: "No leaders." But it turned out that he wanted to be the leader.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Who is that gentleman?
Hayagriva: Mr. Rose. You met him once, I recall.
Prabhupada: Oh. He is not initiated?
Hayagriva: Oh, no, no. He lives in West Virginia.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes. In the beginning.
Hayagriva: In the very beginning.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, I met him. He came with another gentleman.
Hayagriva: That's right. His, his theory of, of death, he says, "When I die I shall cease to exist in every sense of the word. As a personal figure I shall be as unidentifiable as my ashes." No belief in immortality at all.
Prabhupada: So why he is anxious to philosophize? If everyone is going to be finished, then why he is philosophizing? What did he..., why he is taking so much trouble? That is the difficulty--this class of men accepted as philosopher.
Hayagriva: Oh, he became very popular through this book. I don't know how.
Prabhupada: Oh, if you prescribe such nonsense book, everyone will like it. (laughs) (break)
Hayagriva: This is the conclusion of B. F. Skinner. He felt that the goal is to improve the world and then man. He believes that "Now, as never before, man can lift himself up by his own bootstraps, and achieving control of the world of which he is a part, he may learn at last to control himself."
Prabhupada: That man attempted first of all to control the world?
Hayagriva: First control the world...
Prabhupada: Hm.
Hayagriva: ...and then you can control yourself. That's his theory.
Prabhupada: If he..., if one cannot control himself, how he will control the world? How it is possible?
Devotee: Backwards.
Hayagriva: Ultimately he feels that man has no duty. "It is reasonable to look forward to a time when man will seldom have anything to do, although he may show interest, imagination and productivity."
Prabhupada: Imagination, if he thinks like that, that our society will be perfect on imagination, then what he can say? This is childish. That is going on practically. Everyone is coming, a leader like him, and he is trying to make some followers of his own imagination. That is going on.
Hayagriva: He, he believed...
Prabhupada: He has got imagination. He believes in his own imagination. So others can believe in his own imagination. So who is going to follow him? He, he has to remain satisfied with his imagination. I mean, everyone has got imagination. Why he should, one should follow him?
Hayagriva: Like, like Aldous Huxley, he feels that if happiness isn't possible through not doing anything, in the not too few dis..., in the not too distant future, the motivational and emotional conditions of normal daily life will probably be maintained in any desired state through...
Prabhupada: He can probably, perhaps...
Hayagriva: ...through the use of drugs.
Prabhupada: Oh, he is advocate of drugs.
Hayagriva: Any emotional state you wish to be in, you can put yourself in that emotional state by simply taking a pill.
Prabhupada: And put the society in chaotic condition then.
Hayagriva: In this way society can be controlled, through the use of drugs.
Prabhupada: Who will control?
Hayagriva: Well he doesn't believe in any leaders.
Prabhupada: Then who will control? Society controlled without any controller? What is the meaning?
Ramesvara: It's a type of communism, where the people work together in a communal way.
Prabhupada: How they will work together? They require Lenin, Stalin, or something like that, to force them to work. Still, in Communist country there are manager class. Not only worker class, the manager class. So this is all utopian theory. It has no practical value.
Hayagriva: In the United States all of the successful utopian communities have had a strong religious leader.
Prabhupada: Leader must be there, religious or not religious. Everyone has leader. The Communist has got leader, and the spiritualists, Krsna consciousness, we have also leader. So without leader nothing can be done. They may defy leadership, they may defy authority, but one who defies authority, he wants to become authority. So this is natural. Without leader nothing can be done.
Hayagriva: That's the end of B. F. Skinner. (end)
Philosophy Discussions
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